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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7748
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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Fair enough.
I could easily give a lengthy explanation as to why the solution would not work, but frankly, if your initial thought is that a set of heads would work well on a 1680 can also work well on a 2110, I do think a little more reading is in order, or, a lot. I could ask the other way around. Do you think a nice set of heads for a Chevy 350 will work well on a bored and stroked 427 (?)
It rarely happens, but this time I just about agree with Dave. Improperly built engines are the worst. Stepping stone engines are the next worst thing. They ALWAYS end up being way more expensive than just building it right the first time. Thats why I say stop foolin´around, grow up and do it right. Cheaper and better in the long run.
Carry on 
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Fair enough.
I could easily give a lengthy explanation as to why the solution would not work, but frankly, if your initial thought is that a set of heads would work well on a 1680 can also work well on a 2110, I do think a little more reading is in order, or, a lot. I could ask the other way around. Do you think a nice set of heads for a Chevy 350 will work well on a bored and stroked 427 (?)
It rarely happens, but this time I just about agree with Dave. Improperly built engines are the worst. Stepping stone engines are the next worst thing. They ALWAYS end up being way more expensive than just building it right the first time. Thats why I say stop foolin´around, grow up and do it right. Cheaper and better in the long run.
Carry on |
Why not recommend a head for the 1679 then? I'm needing something to put together to drive till I can do the motor that I truly want. In my current situation I have to get pistons/cylinders & heads due to damage. Going thick wall 1679 is only a couple of dollars more than a 1600 so why not do it is my thoughts. The 74mm crank is a thought just in case my current one isn't useable. I was simply thinking that too big of a head would affect the small motor a little but would save me money in the long run. If not it's just going to be longer before I build the big motor & then the small one can just get stored in the garage as a spare. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79117
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| daveblank wrote: |
| Do you have any actual answers to my questions or are you just here to talk too? |
Talk about rude...
Enjoy your engine project.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare
עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3848
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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It would help everyone if you listed what you currently have, and what is wrong with it, and possibly how much money you have to spend on this one.
There are lots of ways to build an engine. Building a cheap one correctly is easy, but a lot of it depends on what salvageable parts you currently have.
We also need to know what you expect out of this thing. Doesn’t just need to get you 20miles to work every day, or are you wanting to try out the local auto-x, or is it just an ice cream getter toy?
Basically, we need you to provide more info, before we can give you a reasonable recommendation.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
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www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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veedubcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2005
Posts: 2159
Location: La Porte, Tx.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| daveblank wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| daveblank wrote: |
| Alstrup wrote: |
| You cant use a set of heads on a 1679 and then expect them to work well on a 2110 Stop foolin´yourself and grow up. |
No need to be rude about it. |
It got your attention. |
Sore did, gave me someone to avoid. We can treat each other like adults & with respect or simply move along. |
You4 loss, he's one of the guys you should listen to. |
Listen to him being a jerk? I think you know better than that,,,
_________________
1967 Deluxe Sedan
1971 Squareback - "The Silver Surfer" |
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
It would help everyone if you listed what you currently have, and what is wrong with it, and possibly how much money you have to spend on this one.
There are lots of ways to build an engine. Building a cheap one correctly is easy, but a lot of it depends on what salvageable parts you currently have.
We also need to know what you expect out of this thing. Doesn’t just need to get you 20miles to work every day, or are you wanting to try out the local auto-x, or is it just an ice cream getter toy?
Basically, we need you to provide more info, before we can give you a reasonable recommendation.
Brian |
1600 dual port. Dual Empi 34 EPC carbs. Exhaust valve head broke off and took out the head, piston, cylinder, & cam/crank gears. Current case is already 3rd over so I'll be building a big motor when I recover from other events. I'm just wanting something fun to put together to drive until I have the $$$ to build the motor I truly want. It's a weekend toy that goes to shows & gets driven to dinner, average 100-150 miles a weekend. |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3848
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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Now we are getting somewhere.
Trying to keep the cost down, and reusing most of what you have, I would build this. It will still be fun, and quite a bit of performance gain over what you had if your engine was all stock except the carbs.
Keep your case
Keep the rods, and the crank
Find some used dual port heads. Hopefully they are not cracked. 85% of the old dual ports out there need to go in the scrap pile, so make sure you look them over good.
Cb2232 cam, cb cheap lifters, aluminum cam gear
Stock 85.5 P&C set
Grant cast rings
Light flywheel.
8.8:1, and a .040” deck height.
Blend the bowls on the heads, and get a well placed 3 angle valve job done. This is the important part, and will make the biggest gains for you. The cam swap will be second in power gains. The 88’s will make a minimal gain, but they are more expensive, and they will require more machine work.
If you were wanting to spend money on better heads, get some stock valve aa500’s, and do the same bowl blending work to them.
Hopefully your case doesn’t need a line bore. If it does, the whole thing is out the window.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7748
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 5:13 am Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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I am not opposing Brians suggestion, but if this is an in between motor anyway I would reuse all I could of the stock parts, within reason of course.
Figure out how much is damaged and how much is reuseable. If case crank and rods are still fine, good. The 34 EPC´s "like" a little more displacement, so a 1680 kit could be beneficial in more than one way. If cam and lifters have survived I would reuse that too. Stock reusable heads only come 10 on the dozen. I would spend the money there instead and get a set of corrected AA500 heads, and cut them for 8-8,2 CR. 1,25 rockers and a decent exhaust.
Also, if you havent already done that (most haven´t, so you are not alone) get the EPC jetted properly. gowesty has a comprehensive explanation and recommendations on their site.
That can give you a financially affordable engine which will both perform well and last a long time.
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
Now we are getting somewhere.
Trying to keep the cost down, and reusing most of what you have, I would build this. It will still be fun, and quite a bit of performance gain over what you had if your engine was all stock except the carbs.
Keep your case
Keep the rods, and the crank
Find some used dual port heads. Hopefully they are not cracked. 85% of the old dual ports out there need to go in the scrap pile, so make sure you look them over good.
Cb2232 cam, cb cheap lifters, aluminum cam gear
Stock 85.5 P&C set
Grant cast rings
Light flywheel.
8.8:1, and a .040” deck height.
Blend the bowls on the heads, and get a well placed 3 angle valve job done. This is the important part, and will make the biggest gains for you. The cam swap will be second in power gains. The 88’s will make a minimal gain, but they are more expensive, and they will require more machine work.
If you were wanting to spend money on better heads, get some stock valve aa500’s, and do the same bowl blending work to them.
Hopefully your case doesn’t need a line bore. If it does, the whole thing is out the window.
Brian |
Used dual port heads go for $150-250 around here & are always well worn. I'd be far better off with new ones. |
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
I am not opposing Brians suggestion, but if this is an in between motor anyway I would reuse all I could of the stock parts, within reason of course.
Figure out how much is damaged and how much is reuseable. If case crank and rods are still fine, good. The 34 EPC´s "like" a little more displacement, so a 1680 kit could be beneficial in more than one way. If cam and lifters have survived I would reuse that too. Stock reusable heads only come 10 on the dozen. I would spend the money there instead and get a set of corrected AA500 heads, and cut them for 8-8,2 CR. 1,25 rockers and a decent exhaust.
Also, if you havent already done that (most haven´t, so you are not alone) get the EPC jetted properly. gowesty has a comprehensive explanation and recommendations on their site.
That can give you a financially affordable engine which will both perform well and last a long time. |
Thanks. I've always made a habit of not reusing cam & lifters, I've seen far too many problems. Yes the carbs will need to be jetted/tuned to match the engiy changes. |
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buckswilde
Samba Member
Joined: June 26, 2010
Posts: 144
Location: Lexington, KY
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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Might as well just do 1641. Slap in some cheap new heads. Dual carbs and a header. Cheap and easy. No machining. Then you can save for the bigger engine. I get wanting the thick walls of the 1679, but is it really worth it for a few extra HP on a temporary engine?
Although, Alstrup is the go to for nice combos! Listen to him. Many of his dialed in 1600's will perform much better than a poorly configured 1679 combo! |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3952
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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I would not use 87, walls are too thin and could warp in 5K miles. Better to just use stock 85.5 P/C or go for thick wall 88's ( more money)
Cheap heads at AAPistons - $540 a pair
https://aapistons.com/collections/stock-performanc...ad-35-5x32 |
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H2OSB
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013
Posts: 1497
Location: Modesto, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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I cannot believe how similar your situation is to mine. I assembled a 1641cc using parts I gathered from the disassembly of other engines. I kinda wish I hadn't used 87s, but I had them already, so be it (I had the parts checked out by a local VW engine builder and ended up replacing the 87 cylinders with...new 87mm cylinders, due to scoring on the cylinder walls). The only other items I bought were CB cheater cam, CB lifters, Mexibeetle valve springs, and 1.25 ratio rockers, reworked by a friend. I need to get my car running, and this is absolutely not the engine my car will end up with. I really want to do things like a full circle crank and 88TW cylinders, but I don't want to waste any money on this engine because I plan to build a far larger street/autocross engine (been getting a lot of advice from Brian_E and Alstrup. They really do know their sh*te. However, there are probably 10K guys on here who know more about VW engine than me).
I was in your same boat. It's very difficult to not want to just spend a little more here and there to make a better engine. And, you can...but, why waste money when you will, eventually, pull that engine. I hate the fact I have 87mm pistons and cylinders, but if I go to 88TWs, I'd need new heads, or heads cut to 90.5/92. One thing always leads to another. I badger Brian_E with potential engine combos, because I'm always thinking, but really, I'll just end up building what was suggested by both him and Mr Alstrup, because I know they have knowledge I do not.
Best of luck
H2OSB
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(o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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Dusty1
Samba Member
Joined: April 16, 2004
Posts: 1985
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| daveblank wrote: |
The case doesn't get cut for the thick 88, only the heads get cut. The crank was a thought if my current one checks bad. Current case is already on 3rd overbore, I'm not spending the $$ to machine it for bigger cylinders. |
You would be well served to pay attention to Alstrup and Glenn. Altrup has a nearly paranormal knowledge base at least where VW engines are concerned such as specific details about combustion chamber volume, knowledge of every cam on Earth not just the usual suspects as well as further uncanny knowledge of appropriate compression ratio, fuel requirements and knowledge of how to degree various cams to dial in various combinations.
Each engine combination has its own very specific recipe. More details than I care to remember or maybe even consider.
Near as I can tell Glenn is a moderator and another engine builder. Even though I was very poorly raised I don't care to annoy a moderator or (one of the) the literal Fount(s) of All Wisdom.
It's very easy to piss people off with the written word. That's why there are classic forms such as letters beginning with "Dear Sir" and closing with "Sincerely Yours". While it may seem quaint those forms were designed a very long time ago to avoid misunderstandings that might result in duels with pistols, cutlasses or whatever weapons came readily to hand.
If I had a case that was .040 on the mains already I wouldn't sweat the details. I would use a set of decent stock (ish) heads, a CB 2280 cam and get the CR in the 8.3 : 1 ballpark.
If you think about it all you're gaining with 88mm cylinders is 90cc more displacement. Despite the old J.C. Whitney catalog touting the virtues of "big bore" kits, bigger cylinders alone don't really get you that much. You need around 160cc more to make your motor 10% bigger hopefully with a 10% increase in power. Again, a 10% power gain over stock isn't much, maybe 5hp.
You need guys like Alstrup or Glenn to help you stack your power gains without throwin' big bucks at your motor.
Big bucks for small gains. Don't do that! Save your dough for your big motor.
.
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| buckswilde wrote: |
Might as well just do 1641. Slap in some cheap new heads. Dual carbs and a header. Cheap and easy. No machining. Then you can save for the bigger engine. I get wanting the thick walls of the 1679, but is it really worth it for a few extra HP on a temporary engine?
Although, Alstrup is the go to for nice combos! Listen to him. Many of his dialed in 1600's will perform much better than a poorly configured 1679 combo! |
I was thinking of 1679 & reusing the heads, knowing they would be overkill on it. From looking, the price difference in the1641 & 1679 would only be about $50. In my mind it's hard to say not that. I already have dual 34s. I'll use my current j-tubes & Empi GT 2 tip muffer & wait on a good header till I build the big motor. |
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| H2OSB wrote: |
I cannot believe how similar your situation is to mine. I assembled a 1641cc using parts I gathered from the disassembly of other engines. I kinda wish I hadn't used 87s, but I had them already, so be it (I had the parts checked out by a local VW engine builder and ended up replacing the 87 cylinders with...new 87mm cylinders, due to scoring on the cylinder walls). The only other items I bought were CB cheater cam, CB lifters, Mexibeetle valve springs, and 1.25 ratio rockers, reworked by a friend. I need to get my car running, and this is absolutely not the engine my car will end up with. I really want to do things like a full circle crank and 88TW cylinders, but I don't want to waste any money on this engine because I plan to build a far larger street/autocross engine (been getting a lot of advice from Brian_E and Alstrup. They really do know their sh*te. However, there are probably 10K guys on here who know more about VW engine than me).
I was in your same boat. It's very difficult to not want to just spend a little more here and there to make a better engine. And, you can...but, why waste money when you will, eventually, pull that engine. I hate the fact I have 87mm pistons and cylinders, but if I go to 88TWs, I'd need new heads, or heads cut to 90.5/92. One thing always leads to another. I badger Brian_E with potential engine combos, because I'm always thinking, but really, I'll just end up building what was suggested by both him and Mr Alstrup, because I know they have knowledge I do not.
Best of luck
H2OSB |
I already need new heads that's one of the reasons for thinking 1679. |
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sled
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005
Posts: 6232
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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Just because someone is a moderator doesn’t make them a phenomenal resource of engine building information 
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drive your split. |
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daveblank
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2024
Posts: 78
Location: TX
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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| Dusty1 wrote: |
Near as I can tell Glenn is a moderator and another engine builder. Even though I was very poorly raised I don't care to annoy a moderator or (one of the) the literal Fount(s) of All Wisdom.
It's very easy to piss people off with the written word. That's why there are classic forms such as letters beginning with "Dear Sir" and closing with "Sincerely Yours". While it may seem quaint those forms were designed a very long time ago to avoid misunderstandings that might result in duels with pistols, cutlasses or whatever weapons came readily to hand.
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. |
I'm going to say this & then I'm done with this part of the subject. I never doubted anyone's advice. I asked for it. But I didn't ask to be talked down to nor will I stand here & accept it. If someone disrespects me I will & did say something. My asking someone not to be rude should be offensive to anyone! We're adults & should treat each other with respect. If someone doesn't like my question because it's too basic or it's below them(not saying that's the case...just an example) the solution is simple, move along. We are supposed to be a community of like minded individuals. Do we ever wonder why the new guys tend to not hang around very long? They feel left out because too many of the old heads & their clicks won't accept them. As for me I'm just an old man. I don't have the time or the energy for the drama.
My post was about head choices & I would prefer to stay on topic. Yes I knew that the heads for the 2110 would be big for the 1679 but I was looking for opinions about using them for the short term so I only had to buy 1 set and save a little $$ if possible. |
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Brian_e
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3848
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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If you are planning to buy new heads, get the aa500 35x32 heads. You will need to blend the bowls, and get a correctly positioned 3 angle valve job done at your local v8 engine machine shop.
Here is a topic I did about bowl blending. It shows old single port heads, but the bowls are exactly the same.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=682243&highlight=
You can order them already bored for the 88’s, but they will probably still need to be Flycut more.
The heads come with a 3 angle valve job, but it’s not good. Last night I was working on a set of those, and I did a before and after test. Their valve job, and then mine. I picked up 10cfm on my flow bench just by placing the seat out wider on the valve face, and adding a bottom 4th angle cut. 10cfm is a pretty big gain in one shot without increasing the port volume at all. Just adding a back cut to the intake picked up 3cfm.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6262
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1679 Cylinder head questions |
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Get super stock heads from Steve Tims at performance workshop in Cali. They are the best "stock-ish" heads that are reasonable to buy. Have them cut for the compression you need. Bigger heads will not help, and Tims know what they are doing to keep port velocity high so the engine will be responsive, even with stock valve sizes.
I use them for most 1.6-1.8 liter builds and they always work well.
Get Tims stage 1 or 2 when it's time to build your big engine, or some ported Panchitos
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