| Author |
Message |
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
 Posted: Sat May 10, 2025 5:31 pm Post subject: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
 |
|
I am a year behind on my getting my beetle back on the road 
And it is the small things. In this post there are pictures showing the pivot pin and horseshoe clip. I bought these (not the washers)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8786436
I am struggling with fitment. The pictures above show a tight fitment.
My original brakes (probably 25-30 yrs old) had the e-brake lever riveted onto the brake show.
The horseclip also just falls off. I guess this is the youtube link showing the bending to lock it. (I dont feel this very safe, I might find a good fitting circlip)
Can anyone tell me what it is I am missing
This shows the "bearing" that was riveted to the old shoe. Way smaller than the new pin
you can see 1/4" surplus pin here
This shows the amount of the gap as I could easily have both levers on the new pin.
Be great if anybody has input, thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4195
Location: WA
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 8:17 am Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| You are missing the wave washer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| Starbucket wrote: |
| You are missing the wave washer. |
Thanks. Will that wave washer be enough? It seems a little thin. I will give it a go and report back.
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kreemoweet
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 4074
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
You got sent the wrong pin, too long, probably it's for a different VW model. And you should be able to squeeze the horseshoe clip into the groove in the pin, locking it in place. And the wave washer goes under the horshoe clip, not between the shoe and lever as shown in your 1st photo.
_________________
'67 bug: seized by the authorities
'68 bug: seized by the authorities
'71 kombi: not yet seized by the authorities
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
runamoc 
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 6028
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
|
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 8:13 am Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
That's an incorrect picture for a Beetle. Looks like a Rabbit rear brake assembly because they use the 'stepped' wedge to adjust the emergency brake shoes. ALSO, the pivot pin head goes towards the lever and the circlip goes on the back of the shoe. Probably doesn't really matter though. AND as already been posted earlier, that is the wrong pin, it's too long.
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 6:09 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
I love this site, so much knowledge here.
Appreciate the answers. That photo was stock from a post here. I was just using the gap, or lack of gap to explain my predicament of a 1/4" gap.
I bought my pin and clip from a company online and as expensive as it was, it won't be worth while returning it. I could not find a 'kit' containing a pin washer and horse-thingy-clip. I added a wavy washer and as observed the pin is way too long and my wavy washer is way too thin.
I appreciate the info on pin, clip and washer alignment, this does help.
So, does anyone have an idea where I can get the correct brake pin, washer and clip? My google fu is not strong here.
The Beetle is a 73' RHD but has a swing axle (out of Uitenhage factory) and the brakes are in a 230mm drum 113501615D. Yeah... makes life interesting when the parts are mix and match.
| kreemoweet wrote: |
| You got sent the wrong pin, too long, probably it's for a different VW model. And you should be able to squeeze the horseshoe clip into the groove in the pin, locking it in place. And the wave washer goes under the horshoe clip, not between the shoe and lever as shown in your 1st photo. |
| runamoc wrote: |
That's an incorrect picture for a Beetle. Looks like a Rabbit rear brake assembly because they use the 'stepped' wedge to adjust the emergency brake shoes. ALSO, the pivot pin head goes towards the lever and the circlip goes on the back of the shoe. Probably doesn't really matter though. AND as already been posted earlier, that is the wrong pin, it's too long. |
Much appreciated.
quick edit. The JBugs kit is the same pins as what I bought.
https://www.jbugs.com/product/211609601B-KIT.html?gQT=2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7405
Location: Clyde, TX
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 6028
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
|
| Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| Quote: |
| find a 'kit' containing a pin washer and horse-thingy-clip |
here ya go
https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-211-609-601-bkit/
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
I remember the shoes being pre fitted to the ebrake lever. At some point they were riveted in a "bearing" type of pin from supplier. It is the smaller hollow one in this picture
I ordered the 211609601B pivot pin and it looks like the ones for sale in CIP and all the rest who supply. I have no idea why they dont fit.
Any idea where I can find the dimensions for these pins?
appreciated |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
Thank you
That is the pin I bought. Anywhere one could get the dimensions for the one I need?
the one I have is 3/4" from outer edges
inside shaft is 1/2" to the indent for the clip
Clip gap is 1/16" with another 1/16" from clip divot to the end.
5/16 diameter - this is the only dimension that fits :~\
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4195
Location: WA
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 8:04 am Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| Don't overthink this! just but a couple of 5/16" flat washers to take up the space and get that car back on the road. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| Starbucket wrote: |
| Don't overthink this! just but a couple of 5/16" flat washers to take up the space and get that car back on the road. |
Ha. I thought about this and then thought about using rivets per original. I would love to do it right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| whirlpool wrote: |
So, does anyone have an idea where I can get the correct brake pin, washer and clip? My google fu is not strong here.
The Beetle is a 73' RHD but has a swing axle (out of Uitenhage factory) and the brakes are in a 230mm drum 113501615D. Yeah... makes life interesting when the parts are mix and match. |
A '73 RHD Beetle means it is NOT a US-spec car. You should be looking for rear brake parts for a US-spec '68 Beetle which was the last year for the swing axle in the US. Outside the US VW used the same S/A rear thru 2001 when the concluded Beetle production.
The 113501615D rear brake drum is a '67-earlier narrow wide-5 drum. It is for use on rear axles with the short spline section. '68 was the first year VW introduced the long spline rear axles. You can run earlier drums on '68-later axles but will need a conversion spacer to take up the space of the longer splines. Are you using these to run the earlier drums on your later axles? Or have you changed the axles? '67-only axles were long shaft/short splines. To run the '66-earlier axles you would also need to replace the axle tubes. Its starting to get complicated! 
Are you running the earlier brake shoes to match your '67-earlier drums? I think you may also need to swap the backing plates to '65-'67 ones to match those shoes and drum? Does any of this make a difference in the hand brake hardware you are looking for?
I'm concerned that the dimensions you posted for your pivot pin are all SAE/imperial and not metric? Sounds like the wrong pin? Does it fit well in the holes in the lever arm and brake shoe or is it a very loose/sloppy fit? If the fit is good I'd just add washers to take up the excess. Make sure one of the washers is a wavy washer to allow some play. Then check for any interference.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2025 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
Sorry for the delay in replying
| ashman40 wrote: |
A '73 RHD Beetle means it is NOT a US-spec car. You should be looking for rear brake parts for a US-spec '68 Beetle which was the last year for the swing axle in the US. Outside the US VW used the same S/A rear thru 2001 when the concluded Beetle production.
|
100%. Car was a "kit" car where Germany put parts into containers and they were manufactured all over. This allowed them to add or remove items needed for local compliance. Uitenhage is outside Port Elizabeth in SA.
These pins are listed as "Fits 1954-1977 Beetle" so I thought I was safe
| ashman40 wrote: |
The 113501615D rear brake drum is a '67-earlier narrow wide-5 drum. It is for use on rear axles with the short spline section. '68 was the first year VW introduced the long spline rear axles. You can run earlier drums on '68-later axles but will need a conversion spacer to take up the space of the longer splines. Are you using these to run the earlier drums on your later axles? Or have you changed the axles? '67-only axles were long shaft/short splines. To run the '66-earlier axles you would also need to replace the axle tubes. Its starting to get complicated!
|
Those are the drums I am replacing, after 50 odd years they has seen some sh*t.  I have swing axles as built in late '72. I dont have that spacer you mention.
| ashman40 wrote: |
Are you running the earlier brake shoes to match your '67-earlier drums? I think you may also need to swap the backing plates to '65-'67 ones to match those shoes and drum? Does any of this make a difference in the hand brake hardware you are looking for?
|
VWC-113-609-537-B
https://www2.cip1.com/vwc-113-609-537-b/?srsltid=A...IuZ35E0YbX
Fits BEETLE 58-64
Backing plates are original.
Welcome to my life of mix and match
| ashman40 wrote: |
I'm concerned that the dimensions you posted for your pivot pin are all SAE/imperial and not metric? Sounds like the wrong pin? Does it fit well in the holes in the lever arm and brake shoe or is it a very loose/sloppy fit? If the fit is good I'd just add washers to take up the excess. Make sure one of the washers is a wavy washer to allow some play. Then check for any interference. |
I did imperial measurement because I am in the US. It is the wrong pin. I would love the correct pins. The original had that grommet that was rivited. That was how they supplied them in the past.
The 5/16 diameter is perfect fit, it is just the length. Even adding an extra washer the lever is very loose. Two washers is just too much.
thanks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 8:53 am Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| whirlpool wrote: |
| 100%. Car was a "kit" car where Germany put parts into containers and they were manufactured all over. |
This makes sense.
| whirlpool wrote: |
| I have swing axles as built in late '72. I dont have that spacer you mention. |
Hmmm. Why don't you go ahead and measure the length of the splined section at the outer end of your axles. Compare this with inner splined length of the replacement drum. They should be the same to work properly. The problem most face when trying to use wide-5 drums on '68-later cars is the mismatch of these splined areas. The conversion space makes up for the drum being too narrow.
The other option... The '70s T1 "Thing" came from the factory with wide-5 drums with the wider splined area. These bolt up to the later axles without spacers AND you get to run the later wide brake shoes giving you more stopping power. Check your old drums and see if they have the wider splined area.
Or, as previously mentioned, someone may have swapped the axles for pre-68 axles. Any of these would work with narrow splined drums. Check the cast iron section at the outer ends of the axle tubes. Look for the embossed part#. '66-earlier had just the part#. '67-only added "A" near the part#. '68-later added a "B". This will give you an idea which axle you have installed.
This could be a problem. See the below chart showing the different brake shoes over the years.
Compare 168 (the ones you bought) and 270. They are similar in size. The difference is the bottom where they mate with the brake shoes adjusters. See the small comment. In '65 VW changed to an angled surface on the brake adjuster screws. The shoes and adjuster screws must match. Check that the slots in your brake adjusting screws where the shoes fit have a flat surface to match the flat surface on the 168 shoes you bought. If the slot has an angled surface... then you have the wrong shoes. You need the 270 shoes.
| whirlpool wrote: |
| The 5/16 diameter is perfect fit, it is just the length. Even adding an extra washer the lever is very loose. Two washers is just too much. |
If the pin fits nicely in the holes of the shoe and lever you are good. Use a wavy washer to fill the gap and tighten up the pin. If needed, bend the wavy washer some so it fills a larger gap. It doesn't need to be under heavy pressure but shouldn't be super sloppy. Lightly grease the pin as it serves as a pivot point. He careful not to get any grease on the shoes.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
runamoc
Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2006
Posts: 6028
Location: 37.5N 77.1W
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 11:15 am Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| Quote: |
| you get to run the later wide brake shoes giving you more stopping power |
Never been able to understand this. Different wheel cylinders to accommodate the wider shoes I can understand but the fixed part of the backing plate that holds the brake star adjusters is a set distance from the backing plate. Installing wider shoes with a different 'center line' seems like they wouldn't fit into the star adjusters. Like when trying to fit '68 shoes into a '67 backing plate. '68's are wider but won't fit the '67 backing plate.
_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 45 yrs - Plan B: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs- '80 Rabbit Diesel
VW Wiring = It's just wires |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
I will see if I can look at this during the week, probably be the weekend.
I will let you know what I find. I believe that everything will be above board. The car has been owned from new and is stock. I will check the brakes. I might have the 270 version of rear. A lot to check.
Thanks. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Sun May 18, 2025 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| runamoc wrote: |
| Quote: |
| you get to run the later wide brake shoes giving you more stopping power |
Never been able to understand this. Different wheel cylinders to accommodate the wider shoes I can understand but the fixed part of the backing plate that holds the brake star adjusters is a set distance from the backing plate. Installing wider shoes with a different 'center line' seems like they wouldn't fit into the star adjusters. Like when trying to fit '68 shoes into a '67 backing plate. '68's are wider but won't fit the '67 backing plate. |
I must check what backing plate I have. It might explain things |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
whirlpool
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 152
Location: Keller
|
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| ashman40 wrote: |
Hmmm. Why don't you go ahead and measure the length of the splined section at the outer end of your axles. Compare this with inner splined length of the replacement drum. They should be the same to work properly. The problem most face when trying to use wide-5 drums on '68-later cars is the mismatch of these splined areas. The conversion space makes up for the drum being too narrow.
|
Crap crap crap... My old drums have a 60mm deep axle spline, matching my axles. You were right to question me.
No spacers on original.
found this on this site
For US Spec Beetles.
Up through 1966 used short tubes short axles with short splines
1967 used long tubes long axles with short splines
1968 and some 69 used long tubes long axles with long splines for the longer spline 4 lug drums.
Just FYI , for countries still utilizing swing axles after 1968, used long tube long spline axles. This is me!
I have 5 lug long spline drum with 30mm mating area.
| ashman40 wrote: |
Check the cast iron section at the outer ends of the axle tubes. Look for the embossed part#. '66-earlier had just the part#. '67-only added "A" near the part#. '68-later added a "B". This will give you an idea which axle you have installed.
|
I have not seen the part numbers on the axle. I will need to do some cleaning and will inspect them again.
| ashman40 wrote: |
This could be a problem. See the below chart showing the different brake shoes over the years.
Compare 168 (the ones you bought) and 270. They are similar in size. The difference is the bottom where they mate with the brake shoes adjusters. See the small comment. In '65 VW changed to an angled surface on the brake adjuster screws. The shoes and adjuster screws must match. Check that the slots in your brake adjusting screws where the shoes fit have a flat surface to match the flat surface on the 168 shoes you bought. If the slot has an angled surface... then you have the wrong shoes. You need the 270 shoes.
|
Did I say crap? well turns out I bought the wrong drums, shoes, and brake cylinder.
The brake drum has a short spline and 40mm brake surface, mine should be a long 60mm spline and 30mmsurface
The original shoes are the 270 with a angled face, I bought the 168 straight face.
The brake cylinder I bought is straight on and the one I am retiring is angled to match the 270 shoes
| ashman40 wrote: |
If the pin fits nicely in the holes of the shoe and lever you are good. Use a wavy washer to fill the gap and tighten up the pin. If needed, bend the wavy washer some so it fills a larger gap. It doesn't need to be under heavy pressure but shouldn't be super sloppy. Lightly grease the pin as it serves as a pivot point. He careful not to get any grease on the shoes. |
Perfect, I managed to get this done last night perfectly, on the wrong shoes!
Back to the drawing board, besides the expense and delay, I am more knowledgeable
So unsure what to buy, but I have a lot more knowledge to research.
Parts and numbers proving interesting.
The drum in particular is challenging |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Thu May 22, 2025 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: VW Beetle Brake lever pivot pin and clip fitment |
|
|
| whirlpool wrote: |
My old drums have a 60mm deep axle spline, matching my axles. <...> No spacers on original.
<...>
I have 5 lug long spline drum with 30mm mating area.
<...>
I bought the wrong drums, shoes, and brake cylinder.
The brake drum has a short spline and 40mm brake surface, mine should be a long 60mm spline and 30mmsurface
The original shoes are the 270 with a angled face, I bought the 168 straight face. |
Your old drums were wide-5 lub bolt spacing... long spline support without a spacer... narrow 30mm wide brake shoe surface? Custom drum? 
I believe, '73-later T-1 Thing rear drums would have been Wide-5 bolt spacing + long spline + 40mm wide shoe surface. Everything you described but the shoe surface is too wide. I suppose you could get a machine shop to shave 10mm off the lip of the drum until there is only 30mm left? But it would seem better to mod your rear end so it would make use of the more common 40mm wide '68-later brake shoes and unmodified Thing drums.
| whirlpool wrote: |
| ashman40 wrote: |
Check the cast iron section at the outer ends of the axle tubes. Look for the embossed part#. '66-earlier had just the part#. '67-only added "A" near the part#. '68-later added a "B". This will give you an idea which axle you have installed.
|
I have not seen the part numbers on the axle. I will need to do some cleaning and will inspect them again. |
Here's a pic to show you the embossing you should look for. Note the "B" marking on the right side axle tube end casting indicating this is a '68-later axle:
Note the longer end casting to support the longer length axle used in '68. The axle tube on the left is for the short shaft/short spline '66-earlier cars.
| whirlpool wrote: |
| The brake cylinder I bought is straight on and the one I am retiring is angled to match the 270 shoes |
Hmmm, I didn't think the slots at the outer ends of the wheel cylinders were angled?? I thought they were squared slots. I don't ever remember being concerned how the ends of the wheel cylinder were oriented/rotated?
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
