Powerspark Electric ignition

[soggz]

Hi.
1600 tp Camper van.
Always ran points since 2006.
Was going to try electronic ignition. Seems easier than setting point gaps.
Question is, if I change to it, can I use iridium plugs? Just wondered, as the ignition system will be new, so why not the type of plug too?
TIA.

[Glenn]

Wear comfortable shoes, for when it fails and you have to walk home.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[soggz]

[Glenn]

What's a "dizzy"?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[Stinky123]

Run Copper plugs, they are less likely to foul and they work better. Of course, you are going to need to change them more often.

Dizzstributor

[soggz]

Thanks.

[mikedjames]

Hi again..

Just dont do it...And iridium plugs are a waste on our weedy engines..

Cheap electronic modules serve a lot of people well. But when they fail through being cooked they become more annoying than points.

Points and condensers serve a lot of people well. But when they fail because the condenser is cheaply made, they become more annoying than cheap electronic modules.

BTW Dizzy is the name of the cement mixer character in the British TV series "Bob the Builder", probably why we have a tendency to use that name for a distributor, especially if we have had childrens TV rammed into our brains.
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[soggz]

Thanks Mike. Just wondered about the two as a comparison.
(Dizzy is also a bit of a Rascal, lately…).

[W1K1]

food for thought, this note came with my CDI years ago

"This is the message I posted to the Ontario hot rodder's forum. I've modified the last paragraph for
clarity. Fred

I had quite a few people asking me if Pertronix would trigger the CD ignition I build and I kept saying
no. Finally I was asked too many times so I bought a Pertronix to fit the Ford V8 distributor that is in
the old spark gap test machine I'm using. Pertronix triggers the CDI just fine and the switch on the CDI
box will switch from CD to STD which in this case is Pertronix only instead of points only.
What I noticed right away, is that Pertronix gives a weaker spark than points. Maybe hard to believe
when some of you have had performance increases when switching to Pertronix from points, but let me
explain. Points do not switch cleanly at very low rpm such as on the starter motor as a large portion of
the energy leaks away through arcing at the points. Speed the points opening a little as rpm rises and
they switch cleanly. Speed it up some more and points start to bounce which effectively reduces the
dwell time and makes for a weak spark. Pertronix switch cleanly no matter how slowly the engine is
turning or how fast, but the spark is weaker than points for the rpm range where points are switching
cleanly and not bouncing excessively. Another plus for Pertronix is that you don't need to get the file
out every few thousand miles like you do with points switching the high coil current. But, clean points
give a much stronger spark than Pertronix.

The reason Pertronix is weaker (and very noticeably so, which is why I investigated) is that there is an
inherent voltage drop from the semiconductors that do the switching. On the one I tested that voltage
drop is nearly constant at 0.9V from 6V to 14V. The company literature for the 6V Pertronix indicates
that it has a 1.2V drop which in my opinion would be unacceptable on a 6V system. I had some other
folks test their Pertronix and the voltage drop varied from 1V to 1.3V.

To realize how much this reduces spark energy you have to understand that the energy stored in the coil
is proportional to the current squared. If you halve the voltage, you halve the current through the coil
and the stored energy is 1/4. For example, if you have 4 units of energy at 12V and the battery voltage
drops to 6V, you have 1 unit of energy. A 1V drop in voltage from the Pertronix reduces the energy at
12V to 80% or 3.2 energy units. At 6V with Pertronix the energy is only 70% of points, so now you
only have 0.7 energy units. What I am saying is that with points ignition you already have a weak spark
and with Pertronix it is considerably weaker than points right in the rpm range where you really want it
to be stronger. It would also be completely useless getting a car started with a weak battery unless the
plug gap is very small. Don't forget that a corresponding decrease in spark energy also means a
reduction in available voltage so you need a smaller spark gap. That's the key to making Pertronix
work, cuz it's a gutless spark.

By the way, for those that are electrically challenged, the voltage drop of semiconductors is akin to the
pressure drop of pumping water uphill. The pressure drop is there and almost constant no matter how
much pump pressure is applied, so it subtracts directly off the available pump pressure. Or, in the case
of your car, directly off the battery voltage. The coil primary resistance on the other hand, is akin to the
pressure drop that a throttling valve would have at the pump discharge. The amount by which it reduces
flow is dependent on friction, and is always a percentage of the applied pressure rather than a fixed
value. The ballast resistor or coil primary resistance is just like a throttling valve. Fred"
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php

1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[Wildthings]

Properly set up points combined with good spark plugs will last 20K miles easy.

[mikedjames]

One likely reason Pertronix also markets 3 ohm coils as opposed to stock 4 ohm coils is to compensate for the 1 volt voltage drop in the switch in all ignition modules based on IGBT technology. Apart from selling even more profitable high selling price accessories..

That voltage drop means the module is producing its own heat too, if it is switching 4 amps for 50% of the time (45 degrees dwell) that is 4/2 =2 watts of heat to get rid of.

On the ignitor 1, with the engine stopped and "points closed" its 4 watts of heat in the module..maybe another reason apart from frying coils why they switched to a design which shuts off the current when the engine stops turning.


You get even "fatter" sparks with a 1.6 ohm coil driven from an EDIS 4 module...
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[soggz]

So……. Just stick with points and condenser then Mike? For the miles I do, not sure it would make much difference. You know the history of my van, pretty much, and you know what I have done to it, also, over the last nigh on 20 years. I would ask on The Late Bay, but they don’t like my opinions…

[mikedjames]

[soggz]

Thanks Mike. It might get me to techenders.

[SGKent]

we used points on a race car in the early 1980's and on a 4 cyl engine it can easily do 10,000 RPM without bouncing or saturating. On a V8 there would be twice as many lobes so it would not work well - meaning that 10,000 rpm to a 4 cyl distributor is 20,000 rpm to a V8 set of points and coil.

My 1971 DP used to run 6,000 rpm for hours on the way out to Havasu or between So Cal and Nor Cal. It always got at least 10,000 miles on a set of points, and up to 15,000 miles between needing to service it - whether I filed the points or replaced them.

This failure of the condenser issue is just the last 5 - 8 years and it is not all brands.

A CDI is a device that goes between the trigger and the coil. The idea is that if you are using points the CDI draws very little current from the points, and then the CDI delivers the coil what it needs electronically. Running them in the 1960's and 1970's it was common to get close to 100,000 miles reliably on them. The rubbing block wore out on the points, or the points got too dirty from lack of arcing was the typical reason the points had to be serviced. I would own a CDI unit. I would not own a pertronix or equal due to how they fail. I can change and adjust a set of points in 5 minutes with a dwell meter and a screwdriver. Just use a remote starter switch to spin the engine to adjust the dwell (points).

Modern ignition systems are computer driven, and usually have one coil per plug. They are completely different designs than the electronic ignitions for buses. This is an old conversation that goes back a long time, and every year the subject comes up over and over. It should be a sticky.

Early well built CDI

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[soggz]

Thanks. Was looking to install a start switch in the engine bay. How would I go about it please?

[Wildthings]

[soggz]

[SGKent]

there are many kinds. Here is a quick and simple one.

https://www.amazon.com/INNOVA-3630-Remote-Starter-...&gQT=1

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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

Well like SGKent shows, there is a cheap tool to do that with. A bit hard on a Bay as you have to crawl underneath to hook it up each time, but you could easily add some kind of plug/socket in the engine compartment where you could just plug it in. If you do this add an inline fuse to make it hard to create a big spark.