Schnorr

[SGKent]

there is no bite on the 12.9 bolts and the teeth are all flat on the bolt head side. The moon plate side has teeth, and it left an indent in the moon plates. The washer is completely flattened as well. I see no benefit of these with the 12.9 bolts. The contact area is reduced too, where grease etc, could migrate in and lubricate the contact area. Most likely the S washers are 10.9 and the VS 12.9. That is why the S are listed up to 8.8 and the VS up to 10.9. the cam style are too thick and too expensive to be the guinea pig on a test. My thinking is also that the flanges are NLA and if one strips because the bolt goes in too shallow with the thicker 2-piece expensive washer made for 12.9, it cannot be replaced with a new one.

The benefit of the washers would be they would help spread the load on the moon plate, which is pretty thick steel. You can see deformation where the washer that came with the older kits is thinned where the bolts sat on it. That clearly shows that the washers are softer than the bolts.

Here is a 4 page read on the washers re:Vanagon. Apparently this is a long running argument of should I, or should I not use the washers. I have nothing more really to add to these 4-pages. Don't know why my searches missed this 4-page thread before. My observation is that the washers deform with the 12.9 bolts, but they will protect the moon plates. That is probably the logic I will use. They will not add locking to the bolts, they may even reduce it. But does it really matter whether the moon plates distort first or the washers, both events loosen the bolts. Probably should I get "six" or "one-half a dozen" kind of question, other than new VW moon plates are harder to come by these days than Schnorr washers - so destroy replaceable washers first.

McMasterCarr ones are S good to only 8.8 bolts. They are nothing better than a flat washer for this application but they will help protect the moon plates. The web page at BelMetric shows .066" for the VS ones. Giving up the threads on the flange to go with thicker washers has its own risks. The flanges aren't all that thick to begin with.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

[SGKent]

they will work crap to stop rotation. I only used them because they help keep the bolt from biting into the moon plate. I would wager money that there is zero difference with or without them other than loading on the moon plates.

Using the grease we discussed to pack them now. One side done. Lord I hate servicing CV joints, such a messy job both cleaning up and lubing. Just to think, today CV joints on some cars last the life of the car almost.

"And your job as the newest mechanic here is to clean and pack all the CV joints that are brought to you by the other mechanics while they are working on their other servicing tasks."
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[metahacker]

i like these
https://t3technique.com/products/rear-12pt-cv-bolt-nordloc-washer-kit

12pt + nordloc

porsche forum guys seem to prefer them as well

if it keeps you up at night, use race-wire

[SGKent]

those are great as long as the bolt length is adequate. A bit pricey but better than they came. Post back what the length the bolt is if you don't mind. Maybe take a measurement of the portion that extends past a washer. Might be something where someone could just order them then replace them one at a time without pulling the CV off. Even three of those on each CV would improve odds of a CV not loosening.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[raygreenwood]

The Nord-Lock are great lock washers. They will work under all conditions.

What the heck do I mean by that?

Same thing I have said in numerous threads through the years.

The Schnoor washers work just fine on BOTH 10.9 and 12.9.....but you have to get the damn grease out of the threads and out from under the bolt heads. Thats what I mean by "all conditions". Its just not that hard to do.

Yes, they do not bite on 12.9 as well as they do 10.9 but they bite well enough to give good enough locking considering you are....or should be....running higher torque on the 12.9 in the first place.
Proper torque with DRY THREADS....and NEW schnoor washers.....yes VS would be better but S works well enough with 8mm.....and they will prevent rotation.

I have also posted microscope shots of the Schnoor bite on 12.9 in the past in the forums.

If you are not using dry threads to test and are not testing breakaway torque on loosening....then you are not properly testing the Schnoor and have no idea whether they work or not.

If you can afford Nord-lock for 24 bolts @ ~$2 per washer couplet....go for it!

One thing you should understand about Nord Lock. They are accurate and mean what they say about torque to produce clamping load to make them work properly. Look at their chart.

With dry threads you need 29 ft lbs....minimum.
With oiled threads you need 32 ft lbs...minimum.

This means you need to be using the 12.9 bolts if you have greasy threads.

Nord locks stop rotation strictly due to clamping pressure on the washer produced by the threads that prevent "camming out" and slippage of either washer in the couplet. BUT....if either the washer against the plate or the washer against the bolt heads slips.....it rotates. So it MUST bite into both surfaces to work any better than the Schnoor washer.

By contrast, the Schnoor washer is a spring...and a pretty damn strong one. It puts extra load on the main threads of the bolt. Both have their merits and usage issues.

Nord lock....you can use with greasy, oiled or anti-seized threads....IF....your bolt allows you to ply enough torque. Schnoor washers require clean threads.

I have never had a schnoor washer fail on CV bolts unless I reused one.

Ray

[raygreenwood]

So, these are from August 2015. I am on the road right now so I had to dig around for these in my cloud microscope archive. So in effect...these pictures are "B-Roll"...but I think they are good enough.

Sorry the focus is poor on some of these.

These are the Schnoor washers- S series, part # S08

Reasonably good shape class 12.9 CV bolt

I tightened this bolt and a brand new "S" series Schnoor washer down to the CV with the plate flipped upside down so you could see a fresh bite mark being made (yellow arrow on left)

This is the washer detail after torque to 33 Ft lbs using my Craftsman beam type 3/8" torque wrench.

Note that the inner edge of the side that was against the bolt head got flattened more. This is because of two things:

1. If you look closely at these bolts there is a very slight swell and radius where the bolt shaft meets the head
2. As these conical washers start to flatten, the inner high section of the cone starts squeezing inward. It gets more pressure faster.

A close up of the bite mark on the plate

Sorry for the poor focus and lighting. These were very hard to focus at an angle with the microscope. In restrospect I should have just cut the bolt off so I could get it directly under the microscope and then light from the side.

However, you can clearly see the serration marks left in the 12.9 bolt. Yes, they are much less than the softer plate side but they are indentations nonetheless. They do not wipe off and you can feel them with your fingernail.

As I noted, they went to ~33 ft lbs of initial torque. From pictures of that wrench I have it was actually 32.5 if you count the marks.

The key here is that the breakaway torque to LOOSEN this class 12.9 bolt was right at 47.5 ft lbs.

That is the key with these washers is....anti-rotation. They do that plenty well with 12.9 bolts .....as long as they are assembled clean and properly torqued.

By the way....in my last post....I mis-spoke...slightly. I do not really care that much about the grease in the actual threads of the CV flange.

The point is to GET THE GREASE AWAY FROM THE BOLT HEADS, PLATES AND SCHNOOR WASHERS. Grease in the threads does make a difference in torque and it can be enough difference to prevent your from getting enough locking torque especially on a 12.9 bolt...but the main thing is to get the grease away from the locking area.
Ray