Ignition Switch Troubleshooting Guidance Please - Stock '69 Bug

[heimlich]

[ashman40]

[OldSchoolVW's]

I greatly appreciate all the insights and opinions. We’ve been focusing on the ignition switch as the likely culprit, but are there any other circumstances that would cause the symptoms I described in the original post? I don’t see how the lighting switch can be the cause since the terminal receiving power from VR B+ is bridged to the terminal sending power to ignition switch 30 … there is no internal connection to fail.

Yes, as ashman has noted, the current switch may not be the original, but I am inclined to think that it is. When I replaced the turn signal switch, the wrap around the wires appeared to be factory … I don’t think even a VW dealer would have been able to replicate that if they had replaced either of those switches. So the good news would be that it is the original switch with all the build quality that came with parts of that era … so a good candidate for restoration. That said, I’m not particularly anxious to tackle that remove/rebuilt/reinstall project.

I like Rob’s suggestion of adding a relay to the ignition 15 wire and let the relay do the heavy lifting of providing power to the ignition-on circuits in the fuse block. It’s certainly easy enough to do and the contacts in the switch may be reliable enough to provide the current necessary to trigger the relay for years to come. That has certainly been the case with adding the HSR. The only question would be where to source the power for the relay 30 terminal. My first thought would be to put a piggyback on light switch 30 and connect there. I think that would be the most direct. While putting a one-into-two connector on the wire from light switch 30 to the fuse box and running one of the output wires to the fuse box and the other to relay 30 would be easier, it would send all of the output current through that single wire … potentially more amps than that wire could handle depending on what was in use at the time.

If adding the “RUN-relay” works as well as the HSR has worked, I’d be a happy camper. If it doesn’t, there was no harm in giving it a try and I’d be back to the rebuild-the-original or install-a-generic-switch options.

[mex bug]

Make sure the ground cable from the battery to the body is clean, tight and corrosion free. That very often causes those intermittent electrical problems. Sounds simple and it is.

[OldSchoolVW's]

[OldSchoolVW's]

For those with intermittent ignition switch problems who check out this discussion, this is the solution I'm trying ...

I installed an ignition "RUN" relay as shown below to take most of the current load off of terminal 15 in the ignition switch. So far so good. Hoping this helps extend the life of the original switch the same way the hard start relay has. If not, it will certainly help any aftermarket or generic ignition switch I install last much longer.

Note: The lighting switch has three 30 terminals that are bridged and receive 12v from the voltage regulator B+ terminal. Power is distributed from two of these terminals.

_________________
Tom

"Following distance is proportional to IQ."

"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun

'63 Beetle Sedan
'69 Beetle Sunroof
'70 Beetle Sedan
'73 Type 3 Fastback

[Cusser]

My experience shows hat many short-cut the installation of a new electrical switch by using crimp connectors under the dash instead of running the wires o the real/appropriate terminals.

Ask me what I think is the best way.....
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[ashman40]

Nice work!

Did you happen to measure the voltage at the fuse box #15 fuses, before and after? I would expect a measurable voltage improvement (maybe a few 1/10ths of a volt?) as you have removed any resistance created as the current passes thru the old internal contacts of the ignition switch. Now the current is passing thru the NEW contacts of the relay (near zero resistance). Even if the relay contact resistance increases over the decades as its contacts start to burn, you just need to replace the relay with a new one ($5) and the resistance problem is gone.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[OldSchoolVW's]

[OldSchoolVW's]

[OldSchoolVW's]

The “RUN” relay I installed has been working fine for the last 2 1/2 months, however this past weekend, the engine died when I got a block from home. I pulled over, turned the key to “RUN” and dash warning lights were very dim and I heard a faint buzzing sound. Turned the key to “START” and nothing happed. Turned the ignition to OFF and pulled the emergency (4-way) flasher switch and the indicator was dim and not flashing.

I thought the the relay might have failed, so I tried bypassing it by removing the wires connected to 30 and 87 and connecting them to each other. Doing that caused the horn to sound. (????) I really wasn’t interested in troubleshooting this curbside, so connected the coil wire to 12v, turned the key to “START” and it started right up. There was no power to the ignition hot fuses, but the car ran fine and I drove it home. To turn it off I had to disconnect the coil wire. I disconnected the battery and let it sit for a couple of hours while I finished running my errands.

When I returned, I reconnected the battery and connected the relay as it had been (as shown in this diagram).

Turned the key to “ON” … dash warning lights came on normally. Turned the key to “START” … engine started right up and idled smoothly.

Well, something went wrong when it died. If not a relay failure, maybe an intermittent failure in the ignition switch.


So I thought I’d take the column ignition switch out of the equation and tried using this 3-position switch (OFF-ON-MOMENTARY ON … so essentially an OFF-RUN-START SWITCH).

I connected the positive terminals to light switch 30, the MOMENTARY terminal to the starter 50 wire and the ON terminal to the fuse panel (same fuse that the relay 87 wire was connected to or that the ignition 15 wire would be connected to if there was no relay). Essentially mimicking the way the column ignition is wired. As soon as I move the toggle to the “ON” (RUN) position (sending 12v to ignition hot fuses), the horn sounds. I’m having trouble visualizing what’s causing this. Clearly the horn circuit is not grounding when I use the column ignition switch (with or without the RUN relay). As near as I can discern, current needs to be passing through the column ignition switch 15 wire (either to power the fuse panel directly or to trigger the RUN relay) in order for the horn to not sound.

Electrical system gurus, I could sure use your help! What do you think is going on here? What relationship does the column ignition switch have to the horn circuit that a generic ignition switch is lacking?
_________________
Tom

"Following distance is proportional to IQ."

"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun

'63 Beetle Sedan
'69 Beetle Sunroof
'70 Beetle Sedan
'73 Type 3 Fastback

[baldessariclan]

[OldSchoolVW's]

[OldSchoolVW's]

[ashman40]

[OldSchoolVW's]

Thank you for the detailed response AshMan! As always, very helpful observations and suggestions. I have a very busy day ahead, but will look into the points you mention and report back sometime tomorrow.
_________________
Tom

"Following distance is proportional to IQ."

"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun

'63 Beetle Sedan
'69 Beetle Sunroof
'70 Beetle Sedan
'73 Type 3 Fastback

[OldSchoolVW's]

After reviewing the observations and suggestions, I feel that the wording in my original descriptions could be subject to misinterpretation. My apologies. Let's see if I can clarify things a bit ...

[ashman40]

Ok, so we understand that horn going off is caused by the ignition switch lock/bolt making contact with the steering shaft and grounding it. With the stock ignition key switch the horn could never be powered when this happened, but with your extra ignition switch it can happen and causes the horn to sound. So nothing mechanical to fix, just something procedural to be aware of.


For the 4-way problem... all I can say is to monitor it, and identify if it happens again try to determine what were the conditions at the time.
My gut suggested there was a short somewhere behind the dash which caused the dim lights. This is the kind of thing that happens when water gets behind the dash and onto the switches/relays. The key lock grounding the steering shaft is a type of short that was not intentional and not part of the VW design.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[OldSchoolVW's]

Thanks AshMan. I have a 30A circuit breaker on the wire from the battery to the light switch #30 terminal. I've had no problems with it and, judging by the voltage getting to the column ignition switch, it is making solid contact. If there was a short within the light switch or anything attached to it, I would think that circuit breaker would trip. It did not trip for the failure we have been discussing though. Nevertheless, I will keep an eye on it.

I guess this would be a good time to ask if anyone has a photo of the internals for this light switch. I was unable to locate one in the gallery. The original '69 switch looks like this:

No one seems to sell a matching replacement for it and instead is offering the later switch as a substitute, which is configured a little differently and has fewer #30 terminals.
_________________
Tom

"Following distance is proportional to IQ."

"If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." Warren Miller

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing." Wernher von Braun

'63 Beetle Sedan
'69 Beetle Sunroof
'70 Beetle Sedan
'73 Type 3 Fastback

[ashman40]