Bad starter solenoid confirmation?

[aquifer]

[Luft kühl]

When you installed your rebuilt starter, did you also replace the starter bushing ( the one in the bell housing ) ?

A worn bushing can cause the solenoid plunger to bind intermittently .

Try rocking the car back and fourth while in gear, and then try again to see if you can get the solenoid to click.

[aquifer]

[MrGoodtunes]

@aquifer - Next time you get "no click" when attempting to start, try shorting ignition switch terminal #30 (or, #15 while switch is in ON position) to #50:

If this brings in your starter, then you will have narrow'd the trouble to being inside of ignition switch. When I had such trouble, it turn'd out to be a black film covering the contact at about 1:00 ~ 2:00 o'clock position of the part in middle of this pic:

More about it is in this post:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8886078&highlight=#8886078

Edit - Going back to read earlier posts...

[aquifer]

Well I haven’t figured this out yet. Here is the current situation.

It acted up again this morning, fortunately it was on the hoist so I could get to everything. I shorted the ignition switch across. Big spark but nothing from the starter. No clicks, nothing. So I figured it must be the starter solenoid.

I had ordered a new solenoid in case I needed it, so I removed the starter and replaced the solenoid. Same problem. No clicking from the starter. So I shorted the starter across with a screwdriver (which I should have done first) and bingo! Solenoid engaged, engine turned over nice. But still doesn’t work from the switch, even by shorting it across.

So now I think the ignition wire from the switch to the solenoid is running to ground somewhere. There had been mice in the car before I bought it, so it is possible that the wire got chewed up somewhere, though there is no visible problem.

One of the reasons I think it might be running to ground at least partially is that it’s quite a huge spark when I shorted the ignition switch across and the screwdriver got pretty warm after less than a second.

As to why it’s acting up so bad now as opposed to a week or month ago, I have no idea. Maybe the wire got jostled somehow and now it’s touching ground or something.

In any case, I’m mulling what to do. I don’t think I want to use the wire even if I do a hard start relay. I think I’m going to get some heavy wire and run it in the open between the switch and the solenoid. If it works via the key, I’ll know that’s the problem and I’ll have to figure out a way to run a new wire back there.

All thoughts are welcome and appreciated!
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[slayer61]

So it sounds like you have it down to just one wire, right? Disconnect BOTH ends of the wire. Insulate the solenoid end of the wire, and go to the switch end of the wire with your ohm meter and test the wire to ground. You SHOULD see infinite ohms or something close to that. Your meter might say OL or open line. That's good. If it reads a low number, 0 or zero point something, that's bad. If there's another joint or splice in the wire, break that connection and repeat the test again looking both ways. If you have a short, this will tell you if it's in the front or the back.

Good luck.
_________________

[aquifer]

[Fender38]

[aquifer]

Ah I see now! I didn’t do the test right. I thought that if the wire was unwittingly going to ground someplace along its path, I would have seen continuity to ground by the way I did the test. Which I did not. I think that’s probably true? Your way is better, but I think my way told me that the wire is not going to ground?

I did learn more since my last post. I phoned a friend to run the ignition switch while I measured voltage at the solenoid (at the wire coming from the switch). It was about 10 volts. The surroundings were quiet enough that I heard something. So we cranked it again and I heard the sound again. The starter motor was turning - slowly - but the solenoid had NOT engaged.

What does that mean? I don’t know, but maybe it’s possible that the wire has some broken strands inside the insulation someplace, so it’s not carrying enough juice. Maybe?

I’m going to get some wire, put ends on it, and run it from the ignition switch to the solenoid out in the open. Then I’ll crank the ignition. If it works, I’ll know there is SOMETHING wrong with the old original wire. At that point I will insulate the ends of the old wire and figure out how to run the new wire neatly from the switch to the solenoid.

If it doesn’t work, then it’s back to the drawing board. I’ll report back! Any other suggestions are welcome! Thanks again for all the advice.
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[Fender38]

[aquifer]

[Fender38]

[aquifer]

[aquifer]

Still no luck. Here’s where I’m at.

I ran a new 12 gauge jumper wire from the solenoid to the ignition switch. Nada.

I then touched the jumper wire to the positive battery post. Bingo! Starter ran normally.

So I thought maybe the supply wire going forward from the regulator under the back seat to the headlight switch was defective somehow. So I got a new 10 gauge jumper wire and ran it from the regulator forward. Nada.

Then I touched the new 12 gauge solenoid jumper wire directly to the new 10 gauge jumper wire. Nada. So I’m thinking WHAT?? How is that possible? No way that wouldn’t work!

So I touched the solenoid jumper to the hot terminal on the regulator. Bingo! Starter engaged fine. That’s true every time. It always works when I touch it to the battery post or the live terminals on the regulator. Starter engages every time. But under no other scenario does it properly engage the starter.

What I’m seeing is not possible, yet there it is.

I should add that I did get the starter to engage a couple random times when I touched the solenoid jumper wire to the old supply wire on the headlight switch, and once when I touched the two new jumpers together. But 2 seconds later when I tried it again it did not work. The only time it works flawlessly is by touching the positive battery post or the hot regulator posts.

One interesting thing is that when it’s not working, there is a huge spark when I touch the wires together. On the extremely rare case that it does work, there is almost no spark and the starter engages normally. When I touch the battery post there is minimal spark and the starter engages normally.

Is it possible that my rebuilt original starter is defective, and only a direct connection to the battery itself can supply enough juice to overcome the defect and cause it to work? I’m grasping at straws now. Nothing I’m seeing makes sense to me. Maybe I’ll order a new starter and see if it works. Maybe the rebuilt starter has a bad spot that goes to ground or something.

Hmmm.
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[Eric&Barb]

[aquifer]

[aquifer]

OP here: Well I guess the “rebuilt” starter was bad. I installed a new Bosch starter today and it instantly fired right up! I started it several times, test drove it, checked again - works like a champ.

Something inside the old starter must have been shorting to ground, at least sometimes, because my jumper wires would spark like crazy but the starter wouldn’t work 99% of the time. The starter is original to the car and I had it rebuilt several months ago, and it had worked fine since. I suppose that means that the shop that rebuilt it was careless or missed something.

I don’t know much about starters or electric motors, so my follow up questions are:

1. Is there such a thing as an un-rebuildable starter? It’s original to the car, so I would MUCH rather try fixing it again even if I keep on using the new starter for now.
2. Can an ordinary person like me rebuild it myself?

Thanks for all the advice on this. I hesitated to believe it was the starter for a long time because it had recently been rebuilt, but I guess that’s no guarantee. I did learn a lot and I fixed a few little things that I came across during the process, so it wasn’t all a waste of time!
_________________
Parts needed:
Front & rear NOS or used OEM door panels for a '67 in the original Gazelle color (dark tan/light brown).
Also looking for used white headliner pieces, both perforated and non-perforated.

[VW_Jimbo]

[Bobs67vwagen]

That was a long and exhausting journey to find out the part you had rebuilt was the culprit. At least all the troubleshooting offered in this thread will be of help to others experiencing similar problems. Bob