Rod's Chenowth 4LWD Build

[BFB]

Im interested in seeing how the tests come back on this & the pict carb.
As far as eventually getting rid of your rail, ive known a lot of car guys that go through cars, you know get a new toy and play with it for a while then sell it and move on to the next new toy. And i think most of the time the ones that had a vw type toy, most all seemed to regret getting rid of it.
One of my buddy’s had a lowered ‘74 , patina’ed paint, interior and everything was decent, i built him a little 1641 for it. So just a nice little weekend cruiser. He sold it and his next toy was one of the new mid engine corvettes ( bleh, im not a vette fan ) anyhow he was all kinds of disappointed with how he used to get so many ppl compliment him on his vw and hardly any one gas a rats ass about the vette. Most of us could’ve predicted that though , right?
Needless to say he bought another beetle.
By no means am I trying to tell you what to do, just pointing out that there’s something different about these things and to really consider it before you get rid of it.
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[racecougar]

Results are in. The H30/31 is indeed a restriction on this little 1600. It begins to restrict air flow at around 2k rpm. By ~4500 rpm, it creates 2 - 2.5 inHg. I did back to back tests with the air cleaner installed and removed; there was no change.

Looks like I need to pick out a larger carb setup.


Link



On the subject of selling: I'm not looking to do it anytime soon. Just saying that out of all of the vehicles, this is one of the few that's "on the bubble". I definitely want to enjoy this one for awhile.

[jsturtlebuggy]

There are 37mm PICT-3 carburetors that fit the dual port center section to replace the 34 PICT-3 carb. Amazon and Ebay sell them.
At one time Empi used to sell a single carb setup using a Kadron/Brazilian 40mm throat carb. Always wanted to try it on smaller size engine.
If you wanted to go with dual 40mm IDF style carbs they will work and Porsche used a pair of 40mm dual throat carbs on their 1600cc 4 cylinder engines.
A single IDF would also work too. Just have to figure way to keep manifold from icing up at times. When I was off road racing some use a high intensity light against the air box on top of carb to heat intake air, others wrapped intake manifold with plumbers heat tape use to keep pipes from freezing to stop icing.
I have one buggy using a single 48IDA and had same setup years ago on another buggy and it would ice up at times. Most of the places I go have very low humidity so icing up does not happen much.
This my 1968 Funco Wampuskitty using a single 48IDA carb on a original Crossfire manifold.

_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[BFB]

I’d like to see some pics of the front suspension on that wampuskitty..

Far as carbs, i know a lot of ppl bitch about them but i still really like a 32/36 on smaller ( well , even on larger ) engines and think a big problem is ppl just dont understand them and give up to early. Sure manifold heat can help but it’s not the main fix for them. Gotta remember these things are run on engines twice the size of vw’s and are a 390 cfm carb. Easy enough to jet down though and have to understand that the jets in the 32 side dont have to ‘jive’ with the jets in the 36 side.
If you happened to come through Springfield, id just give you one to try out if you wanted to. Im pretty sure i have a good one in the pile, id have to look though
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[racecougar]

One question on the center-mount two-barrel carbs: do they experience the same hesitation at tip-in as the PICT carbs (air reaches the cylinders before the fuel)?

[jsturtlebuggy]

I did not realize you have single port cylinder heads. Having only single port heads limits to what kind of carb/manifold setup you can use.
The single port heads also limit how much air flow you can get into engine.
Looking for more performance from what engine you have going to dual port heads would be one step to take.
Building a VW higher performance engine is not cheap and the other options such as Ecotec and Subaru can be a better financial option. I had one buggy with a Subaru 2.5L in it and really liked the power. If I was do it again I would use the Ecotec engine. They working great in off road racing.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[BFB]

You can get the single port end casting from empi but the couple i used werent so great, i think if i was going to do it I’d cut the ends off of a factory SP intake and then you can use those with whatever center section you wanted to.

Far as tip in hesitation like a pict , i couldnt answer that because i wont use a PICT carb. But i can say that any center carb can have a hesitation and a lot of them can be tuned out with smaller vents, larger acc pump etc.
that is one thing ive liked about the 32/36 is you still have a small primary side which keeps air velocity through that side high and can bring in the mains without hesitation, and you the secondary side for more WOT.
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[liquidrush]

I found myself in the same predicament, no power on the road, couldn't get out of my own way especially on hills. It was very frustrating. I tried dual single barrel carbs, it helped but still left a lot to be desired. I tried just about every bolt on thing I could find to no avail. How did I fix it? Big cc stroker engine. I also used shorter tires on the rear, 255 60 15s. Now it'll peel your eyelids off. Expensive? Yes. Worth it? Every penny. Now I'm not saying this is what you should do, it's just what I wound up doing.

[racecougar]

I'd absolutely consider swapping in an Ecotec if it wouldn't kill the whole vibe.

I'm leaning toward sticking this HPMX kit on it. That would allow me to make a step in the right direction now without preventing me from moving to dual port heads in the future (keep the carb/manifold and just switch to the dual port end castings at that time). Any big reasons not to go down that path?

https://www.jbugs.com/product/47-7315.html?utm_con...CQQAvD_BwE

I spent a fair bit of time over the weekend further improving the rear alignment. I brought both rear tires forward quite a bit, though it is still toe'd out about 1 degree. I also found that one of the outer spring plate bushings had turned to dust, that the PO didn't use a jam nut on the clutch slave cylinder (it was about to fall off), and I swapped from a 7/8" to a 5/8" front master cylinder to further improve brake bias. I'll drive it and tune that in once I get the new spring plate bushing and install it. In other news, it looks like the nose cone is leaking, so that will be on my list now, too.

[racecougar]

Well geez...JBugs site really sells the HPMX as a solid solution, but their Sales department throws a lot of cold water on the idea. The gist of the conversation was not to bother doing anything to a single port. And here I was ready to pull the trigger.

[jsturtlebuggy]

I don't think there that many people selling parts now that really have any experience with single port heads.
If you want to see work done on single port heads is what Bill fisher did that in his book from 1970 "How To Hot Rod VW Engines".
His findings were they did gain more flow, but it came out almost the same as a stock dual port head.
In the 1970 we ran Zenith 32NDIX on Plenum single port manifolds and the original Holley Bug Spray on an Isolated tube single port manifold. The 200CFM Bugspray worked better on smaller engines then the 300CFM version. Both were based on 1950s Ford carburetors.
I bought my first set of type 3 dual port heads in 1973 (still have them) and WOW what a difference it made in power in my 1500Scc (stock dome pistons) engine in my sand buggy from single ports.
Since you have separate single port end castings going to the single IDF would work, how well? Jetting may take a few changes to get it right.
The Zenith carb used 24mm Venturis and I don't remember what the Bugspray 200CFM had. The 300CFM one had from what I remember 29mm venturis.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[racecougar]

I get that. I guess I was mostly surprised that the sales guy was flat out dismissive of doing anything at all to the engine. Oh well. I'll give it all some more thought.

So the dual port heads make a noteworthy improvement on a stock 1600? Would it be at all detrimental to run the larger 40 x 35.5 valve dual port heads (thinking ahead)? Maybe I should just make a set of heads and dual carbs my next step forward.

I did drive it tonight with the new 5/8" front brake master cylinder. The old 7/8" front master cylinder was limiting pedal travel, which was thereby limiting the effectiveness of the rear brakes. I was able to dial in the bias with the new 5/8" front master cylinder tonight to keep the car neutral while straight up squatting and stopping. I'm really happy with how that worked out.

[jsturtlebuggy]

Going to 40x35.5mm valved dual port heads on a 1600cc will work better at higher RPMs at the loss of some bottom end torque in lower RPMs.
It been done and can depend on what cam and compression ratios you run can work.
Porsche larger valve sizes with their 356/912 engines using a pair of dual throat carburetors on the later versions of the 1600cc engines.
If your buggy was being raced in the 1/2 1600cc class, the engines were built to make power in a higher limited RPM range where power was made at over 4,000RPMs and very little power below that.
_________________
Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960

[BFB]

ok ok, no matter what carb, or heads you switch to , what are we really talking about getting out of this thing? an additional 7-10hp and maybe 500 rpm? if your happy with that great but on the other hand would you be?
I mean you could just duct your cooling fan into that pict carb like the funwithvdubs guys did and get an extra 5 hp , or what ever it was. heh heh!
with stock cam and stock compression id say your best bet is either turbo or one of the AMR 500's , you'll get way more hp for the same money spent on new carb & heads.
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[racecougar]

That's what I'm learning here. Talking further with a couple of companies, $1700 worth of ported, big valve dual port heads, slip-in thick wall 88's, and dual 40 IDF's might get me 15-20 hp. That would be the most expensive 15-20 hp I've ever pursued, though I've never messed with a 4 cylinder prior to this.

My guess is that this thing needs ~100 hp to make for a decent driver. I'm trying to work out the least costly path to get there.

[jimmyhoffa]

FWIW I had the Mexican EFI / Megasquirt setup on a 1915 in my car, 9:1 compression and a Web 218 cam. 40x35 heads, not carefully detailed. I wouldn't be surprised if it made almost exactly 100hp based on that, and it was very driveable. Your estimate is spot on. I took it all over StL and up highway 270 to work dozens of times. Very daily-able.
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.

[racecougar]

[ORANGECRUSHer]

It doesn't need to be that complicated. Granted in the end I spent about $3-4k on my 2110 that's in my baja, but I'm sure it could have been done cheaper. The 1835 that I had in it before was pretty much thrown together, probably a couple times. The ease with which I can get up to speed now compared to that 1835 is great. I'm not going over 80-85mph but I'm comfortably doing 70-75 and I don't even want to go that fast. lol
I think just trying to build a well thought out engine can get you where you're looking to be. You said you were going to sell it though so I don't know why it matters. I wouldn't blow money on something I'm probably not going to put my full effort into because I don't plan to keep it. But then I don't make that kind of funny money and some people do.
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Brian H.

OrangeCrushERBerrien Warrior-2.4L Quad4-2x3 arms-1.5Fox coilovers-094-930CVs
LAZY MARY1970 Baja 2110cc-82mm CB forged crank-AA pistons/cylinders-Grant rings-1.1 vw rockers-CB serpkit-CB chromoly PRs-CB maxiflow filter pump-wix51515 filter-Dual 44IDF-cut/turned front beam-AEM wideband-Auber CHT-Donaldson Dual PowerCore filters-custom AL air boxes

[BFB]

Racecougar I know your a few hours from me but I have a lot of good used parts that I'd make you a deal on if you wanted to build another engine on the cheap. I have a buddy that storing some parts at my place too and I think he's got a good case that's already been align bored too.
honestly though, for something quick & easy, throwing one of the AMR supercharger kits on the engine you have would probably get you where you wanted to be too. and take a lot less time to throw that on than build an engine or do a top end.
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[racecougar]