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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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| Zed999 wrote: |
I came across this which while it doesn't spec the VS exhaust might be interesting.
1 & 3 are paired together inside the exhaust as are 2 & 4.
2 & 4 have to travel a little further than 1 & 3 to escape into the main body of the exhaust which must somewhat make up for the shorter distance through your heater boxes.
This particular one is destined for a Beetle. The tail pipe(s) are connected to the central chamber. There are holes to the outer cambers, but no flow through them as far as I can see and that's where the AFR fittings are. I'd like to see inside a side exit bus version.
https://blog.bbt4vw.com/2019/10/30/asia-factory-tour-building-an-exhaust-vintage-speed/ |
Thank you for posting this! Very nice!
Let me show you another one.
So....I here are a few things have been looking at:
1. the "T-bird" style and the stainless T-bird style.....I can find well made, short header merges in 1"-5/8" in stainless from numerous header sites. I can even find them with expanded slip fit inlet joints. I will post a few lengths later.
2. I can buy a small pile of pre-curved and straight tube sections in stainless. I can get them with expanded slip joints on the straight sections if needed from numerous mandrel bent tubing houses.
3. I have already CC'd each of the 4 header tubes coming from each cylinder and know the exact tube lengths needed to run from each exhaust flange to the header inlets.
4. I can use pre-cut flexible plastic tube to model the radius and lengths......
....so I can weld a little bit better/smoother version of the stainless header....that has exact lengths.......or if I could get my hands on one to cc it....the EMPI header listed may nit be that bad....even though the entry angle from 2 cylinders to the collector....is not that great.
So what muffler to put on it? How to get one that is built well and is very well engineered inside....in the right shape, size and inlet pattern?
Check this out:
https://www.donaldson.com/content/dam/donaldson/en...-Guide.pdf
Most specifically...this truck muffler company makes stainless mufflers...lists flow rates, has excellent technology, makes mufflers with straight through and offset inlets and outs in a range of sizes.
Specifically look at the tech in the first 10 pages....scroll through and then look at the guide starting on page 65.
Look at style #1 and #2 on the guide pages
Part # M085056 can be found for $135/ 8.5” body diameter 21” long or
M085408 which is 8.5” diameter and 19.75” long both have 3” inlet.
Or
M065034 with 2.5” diameter inlet and 6.62” diameter and 18.56” length
M065139 with 2.5” diameter inlet and 6.62” diameter and 17.75” length about $117
These can be gotten in correct sized inlet and outlet...with correct volume flow and in these internal configurations....in stainless.
I can google most of the part #'s in my list and find them on Amazon in the $135 range.
Ray |
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1387
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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| That's interesting, a fairly simple way forward but sadly I don't have the tools or skills or premises to even adapt a silencer...which is a shame, such an easy way to get the right performing muffler for your engine, particularly if an existing header passes muster. They are cheap mufflers though? Gas has just a 1 year warranty. Aluminised steel. Sounds a bit cheap and cheerful? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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| Zed999 wrote: |
| That's interesting, a fairly simple way forward but sadly I don't have the tools or skills or premises to even adapt a silencer...which is a shame, such an easy way to get the right performing muffler for your engine, particularly if an existing header passes muster. They are cheap mufflers though? Gas has just a 1 year warranty. Aluminised steel. Sounds a bit cheap and cheerful? |
Well...I think the already stainless steel EMPI or VW heritage header mentioned in this thread....may be good enough. A few ....smarter than me people like Alstrup in the performance forums said from his experience its good enough that the small differences of not 100% equal length dont really make much difference. I say they might with D-jet...and might with valve overlap....but maybe not much.
In that case it really comes down to what decently quiet, well built, stainless low restriction muffler...would fit in the leftover small space we have.
I think the technology in the type of mufflers made for trucks in that link....are more similar to what our cars already use...than standard zig-zag or glass filled mufflers. Ray |
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 35858
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Zed999
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2018
Posts: 1387
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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It's not identical. This one is for stock muffler dissection and design to fit a specific car, the other is about Vintage Speed internals generally and the VS AFR fitting location.  |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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Yes.....please do not shut THIS thread down......this is MY thread about the stock muffler guts. In fact.....I did not even at first notice this was a thread I started.....had to go back to page 1 
KTPhil.... I am actually glad you posted a link to Zed999's thread in this thread.....because it keeps it all linked together for ME in my technology/idea list.
I think together both threads have some bearing on each other. We all like the stock muffler sound, simplicity of install and compactness of fit.
But.....for those with stock or hotter but near stock engines.....we could use something both a little better build quality and a little more free flowing than whats available right now.
This dissection thread was/is part of my thought process towardm...whether there is anything I can buy that bolts up and does what I need......or if Im going to have to design and build. I have actually been designing and re-designing a muffler I hope I dont have to build....for years. Ray |
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Deanaha
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Joined: October 01, 2018
Posts: 25
Location: TX
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:27 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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Ray,
Thanks for your extensive description of the muffler system- not sure why shutting it down would ever be considered.
So bottom, line, where to get a replacement muffler, and do I need to replace the closed-end tube also?
Deanah |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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| Deanaha wrote: |
Ray,
Thanks for your extensive description of the muffler system- not sure why shutting it down would ever be considered.
So bottom, line, where to get a replacement muffler, and do I need to replace the closed-end tube also?
Deanah |
Closed end tube? What is that? Do you mean it has a small tube on the end opposite the tailpipe? That would be an EGR connection. If your 411/412 is not a California car and/or does not use EGR...no...you do not need that tube. You will find at the links below that the ones with EGR tube and the nes without are seperate part numbers and both are available.
For a basic stock exhaust.....for a 1.7L or 1.8L....its not too hard to find one. But....there is wide variation in quality.
The most common one you will find is Dansk. Made in Denmark. However.....while they are perfectly serviceable and do last well...the welding quality is kind of poor. While they will not fall apart...they are a bit restrictive.
https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/13167865-071251053E?...-QQAvD_BwE
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D071%2D251%2D053%2DE
Other mufflers:
This one on ebay is called a "damper type" muffler. It is about 30% more quiet than the muffler with the end mounted tailpipe....but it a little more restrictive. Not that it will make much difference byt can run a little hotter in hot climates.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-411-muffler-70-74-yr-4...Sw6tte4nyR
Also....the damper style ebay muffler...does not come with a tailpipe. The tailpipes are VERY hard to find. They have not been in production in maybe 30 years. They make both left and right hand versions and they are not interchangeable. So if you decide to buy that muffler....make sure you find out if its right or left hand and FIRST locate a tailpipe. It cannot be used without the center outlet pipe.
There are usually some NOS center outlet pipes for sale in the classifieds...but again make sure they are right or left hand.
THIS....is an EXCELLENT muffler. Leistritz i one of the best brands. Very high quality This one is NOS and Heimlich is a great guy and has very good parts.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2071676
If yours needs a new tailpipe...ask him or look at CIP1.
Here is another Leistritz:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2202086
Another unknown brand. I would find out what brand and ask to see the stamped information plate before spending $240 though.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1456385
This one....would be fantastic! A made in Germany, stock replacement muffler....but in stainless steel! It should last forever. But it says out of stock. Between shipping and Euro cost it would be about $500.
https://www.typ4shop.de/Abgasanlagen/Auspufftopf-f...zontalTab2
Another option I hear very good things about is this:
https://store.vintagespeed.com.tw/1973-~1979-Type-4-Engine-Baywindow-BUS-c33978055
Ray |
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JGarland
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Joined: January 14, 2023
Posts: 1
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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Was looking for info on this muffler, and ended up here. This will fit the 914
with both the notched, and port hole valance’s. Each requires the correct tailpipe. Also seems like it’s stainless, definitely not just stamped steel.
Photo show’s comparison to early stock muffler.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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The two numbers:
The top number 52 04551 is a Wagner part # for a muffler that fits a range of vehicles from 411/412 to VW bus.
The bottom number with the DK prefix....from everything I (and others) have been able to find appears to be the Dansk part # for the same product.
We have some discussion or these numbers on the first page of this thread and if you search those numbers there are some other discussions in the Bay window bus forums.
As noted on the first page of this thread, over a long period of time we are pretty sure that Wagner, Starla and Dansk have all been seperate parts of the same parent company and may still be and now owned by Jopex.
As for whether it's stainless steel..... on one hand I would be really surprised because outside of the link I posted back in 2018 to a specialty company in Germany who makes stainless reproductions of this muffler for ~$500.....I have never seen a stock stainless muffler made by any of these companies for the aircooled VW market.
On the other hand....with so many companies involved in the manufacturing of these mufflers both now and going back decades....and the fact that Wagner was and has been originally known as one of the companies to first specialize in stainless exhaust system parts.....maybe it is stainless.
Ray |
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Backtotheeightiesagain
Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2023
Posts: 138
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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Hi, thanks for one of the most relevant and useful threads on here. I suppose to learn really I have to build it myself!
Will let you know what mess I make or what not to do next time!
Ps I've built a few exhausts at home. Magnaflow seem to work OK for mufflers.
Alstrup suggested hollowing out a stock ernst muffler. I could also try that. Perhaps I will build a couple of tubular style systems to try back to back for comparison. Could do with use of a dyno though....any one??? |
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Jeremiah Berger
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Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 155
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2025 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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I am also finding thia thread to be helpful and informative at the moment. I am at the point of fitting my exhaust onto my engine that I just finished and got installed back into car yesterday.
I am running csp ss headers and was planning on using the one I have that I thought was a stock muffler while I decided/ afforded a new muffler.
I have been considering the vintage speed one mentioned in this thread.
But as I look at this muffler that I plan to clean up and use for now that this does not look like any of the other ones in this thread nor does it have any stampings. I am guessing at this point that it is somewhat custom made ..
The inlets just dump into the main cylinder and Id imagine it has a more simple design like vintage speed one but with just one exit pipe...
Not sure if this is a good option or not or if anyone has seen one like this?
It ran decent before with no overheating issues and was quiet.
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Jeremiah Berger
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Joined: September 16, 2018
Posts: 155
Location: MAINE
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2025 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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I also came across these pics on bring a trailer that show what I'm pretty certain is a vintage speed exhaust like mentioned. Showing how it will fit on a a type 4...
Looks pretty great!
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kgarchivinusa
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2007
Posts: 190
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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Leistritz catalogue 83/84
_________________
1958 Ghia Coupe aerosilver/graywhite
1966 Ghia Coupe lotoswhite/black pigalle
1968 sunroof bug savannah beige
1968 VW 411 4-door royal red
1968 VW 411 L 4-door cobaltblue
1988 Porsche 924S Targa alpinweiss
(O = i = O) Karmann Ghia rassig und charmant [hot-blooded and charming] [O o\ i /o O] |
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kgarchivinusa
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2007
Posts: 190
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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Lange muffler
Typ V92
VW Transporter 1,7 l
66 PS ab 8.71
VW 411-L 68 PS bis Mot.
Nr. V 0100000
VW 411 E-LE 80 PS bis Mot.
Nr. V 010000
VW 412 E-LE 80 PS
Porsche 914/4 80 PS
… KBA 20230
Made n W. Germany
_________________
1958 Ghia Coupe aerosilver/graywhite
1966 Ghia Coupe lotoswhite/black pigalle
1968 sunroof bug savannah beige
1968 VW 411 4-door royal red
1968 VW 411 L 4-door cobaltblue
1988 Porsche 924S Targa alpinweiss
(O = i = O) Karmann Ghia rassig und charmant [hot-blooded and charming] [O o\ i /o O] |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23105
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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| kgarchivinusa wrote: |
Lange muffler
Typ V92
VW Transporter 1,7 l
66 PS ab 8.71
VW 411-L 68 PS bis Mot.
Nr. V 0100000
VW 411 E-LE 80 PS bis Mot.
Nr. V 010000
VW 412 E-LE 80 PS
Porsche 914/4 80 PS
… KBA 20230
Made n W. Germany
] |
Very nice equipment! If one is needing a stock muffler it is very hard to beat those.
In order of best equipment by brand for these mufflers:
1. Ernst:
2. Leistritz
2. Lange
I say they are tied for second and the build quality is no less than Ernst.
3. Wagner. Very good quality but varies from certain units down in the lower end (and usually priced that way) very similar to Dansk. But the top end more similar to Lange and Leistritz.
4. Dansk.
I seem to think there was one more brand but memory is failing today.
Lange as a company is VERY hard to find any information on at all. If you start searching, the first thing you come across is Lange and Sohnes...fine watches. You should look at that site just out of curiosity  ....their shittiest watches start at $75,000 while teh all platinum case watches start at close to $500,000.....damn.
The closest thing I can find to "lange automotive products" is now a Chinese based company with manufacturing in about seven countries.
As I noted a while back in this thread I think I found information that at one time, most of these OEM muffler companies were bought and or owned by Jopex.
I had a Lange muffler on my first 411. I was in college and the exhaust on my 411 that I had since 2nd year in highschool would no longer pass safety inspection. Rusted out.
I found a certificate/coupon in the glove box from the original first owner (this was 1981 and the car was a 1972)....from the Meinike muffler chain shops.
Even a that time in 1981-82, a quality brand factory muffler was ~ $120 or more.
More than I had in my budget. It turns out that the previous owner of the car had damaged the original muffler at early mileage and went to Meinike to have it replaced and paid for a lifetime TRANSFERABLE warranty.
I dropped into a local Meinike shop and was hoping to just at least get something like a big discount with that certificate.
I parked my car on the lift for inspection and handed over the certificate and asked if it was still good (it was about five years old). I sat down to read a magazine and waited. About 25 minutes later they pulled my car out of the bay and it was quiet....and had a brand new Lange, right end exit muffler on it.
The bill was "$0"....I was stunned. The owner of the shop said it was a $155 muffler with installation. He said normally he would hate to have to fork over that expensive of a muffler for a warranty repair....but that the muffler had also been on the shelf in a box for about a decade and was technically "off the inventory" so it was no loss.
He said the guys in the shop were actually kind of excited to see what the hell kind of car that muffler actually went to. Yes, it would also fit buses and some Porsche 914 but the main part # description was VW 411/412....and in Oklahoma city....those were not common to see.
EDIT:....Ah yes! The other brand was "Starla"...which I think was the high end of Wagner.
Ray |
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kgarchivinusa
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2007
Posts: 190
Location: Wolfsburg, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Ernst 411-412 muffler cross section and dissection |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| kgarchivinusa wrote: |
Lange muffler
Typ V92
VW Transporter 1,7 l
66 PS ab 8.71
VW 411-L 68 PS bis Mot.
Nr. V 0100000
VW 411 E-LE 80 PS bis Mot.
Nr. V 010000
VW 412 E-LE 80 PS
Porsche 914/4 80 PS
… KBA 20230
Made n W. Germany
] |
Very nice equipment! If one is needing a stock muffler it is very hard to beat those.
In order of best equipment by brand for these mufflers:
1. Ernst:
2. Leistritz
2. Lange
I say they are tied for second and the build quality is no less than Ernst.
3. Wagner. Very good quality but varies from certain units down in the lower end (and usually priced that way) very similar to Dansk. But the top end more similar to Lange and Leistritz.
4. Dansk.
I seem to think there was one more brand but memory is failing today.
Lange as a company is VERY hard to find any information on at all. If you start searching, the first thing you come across is Lange and Sohnes...fine watches. You should look at that site just out of curiosity ....their shittiest watches start at $75,000 while teh all platinum case watches start at close to $500,000.....damn.
The closest thing I can find to "lange automotive products" is now a Chinese based company with manufacturing in about seven countries.
As I noted a while back in this thread I think I found information that at one time, most of these OEM muffler companies were bought and or owned by Jopex.
I had a Lange muffler on my first 411. I was in college and the exhaust on my 411 that I had since 2nd year in highschool would no longer pass safety inspection. Rusted out.
I found a certificate/coupon in the glove box from the original first owner (this was 1981 and the car was a 1972)....from the Meinike muffler chain shops.
Even a that time in 1981-82, a quality brand factory muffler was ~ $120 or more.
More than I had in my budget. It turns out that the previous owner of the car had damaged the original muffler at early mileage and went to Meinike to have it replaced and paid for a lifetime TRANSFERABLE warranty.
I dropped into a local Meinike shop and was hoping to just at least get something like a big discount with that certificate.
I parked my car on the lift for inspection and handed over the certificate and asked if it was still good (it was about five years old). I sat down to read a magazine and waited. About 25 minutes later they pulled my car out of the bay and it was quiet....and had a brand new Lange, right end exit muffler on it.
The bill was "$0"....I was stunned. The owner of the shop said it was a $155 muffler with installation. He said normally he would hate to have to fork over that expensive of a muffler for a warranty repair....but that the muffler had also been on the shelf in a box for about a decade and was technically "off the inventory" so it was no loss.
He said the guys in the shop were actually kind of excited to see what the hell kind of car that muffler actually went to. Yes, it would also fit buses and some Porsche 914 but the main part # description was VW 411/412....and in Oklahoma city....those were not common to see.
EDIT:....Ah yes! The other brand was "Starla"...which I think was the high end of Wagner.
Ray |
My personal „top ten“.
After long time I found the rare 35 mm pipe for the OEM Volkswagen muffler (until mot. No. V 0049 186)
1. OEM Volkswagen
Driving the Leistritz 76 1 0595
2. Leistritz
3. Lange
_________________
1958 Ghia Coupe aerosilver/graywhite
1966 Ghia Coupe lotoswhite/black pigalle
1968 sunroof bug savannah beige
1968 VW 411 4-door royal red
1968 VW 411 L 4-door cobaltblue
1988 Porsche 924S Targa alpinweiss
(O = i = O) Karmann Ghia rassig und charmant [hot-blooded and charming] [O o\ i /o O] |
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