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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 3008
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 Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2025 6:56 pm Post subject: anodizing ? |
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considering recent thread of aluminum gear teeth wear , shearing / breaking off, why is it none of the aluminum gears are anodized? or any other parts for that matter?
really the only things ive seen anodized are velocity stacks & pulleys, which im sure is done purely for aesthetics.
from my understanding of anodizing it makes a harder more wear resistant surface.
I read that the anodizing process adds to the surface too but that could be beneficial especially for 'reviving ' old stock gears, or a new set with too much backlash. or is it even a significant enough amount to matter?
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"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
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94touring
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2020
Posts: 630
Location: Tulsa - OK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2025 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| I nickle plated my swing lever pin, but only cause I was wanting to see how it would work out. It adds a thin layer, makes it stronger I guess, and corrosion resistant. I saved the solution for any future projects. |
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DesertSasquatchXploration
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Joined: April 16, 2021
Posts: 1051
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2025 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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Have you ever drilled Anodized aluminum it dulls the crap out of your tooling Its called hard anodize for a reason. In the startup company I worked for we machined dovetails for a lot of equipment was cheaper than liner ball bearing slides. You have to account for the thickness of anodize and everything fit great. It held up for just long enough to make a profit and pay for real slides. The anodized dust coming off the wear areas was so destructive in your engine hell no.
_________________
Key is to have downward travel Preload keep both wheels on the ground at all times once you lift a tire your DONE. Guys worry about clearance instead think of the opposite you want the suspension to drop that tire in the hole and keep you going. A spider for example they keep their body low but their legs can reach pretty far so they don't (bottom out) |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23392
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2025 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| BFB wrote: |
considering recent thread of aluminum gear teeth wear , shearing / breaking off, why is it none of the aluminum gears are anodized? or any other parts for that matter?
really the only things ive seen anodized are velocity stacks & pulleys, which im sure is done purely for aesthetics.
from my understanding of anodizing it makes a harder more wear resistant surface.
I read that the anodizing process adds to the surface too but that could be beneficial especially for 'reviving ' old stock gears, or a new set with too much backlash. or is it even a significant enough amount to matter? |
I spoke to Web briefly about anodizing a few years back. They said if you do it, let us knwo how it works.
It was in reference to getting a cam gear that was larger. They stated their standard type 4 gears (probably type 1 too) are all -3.
I have long speculated that ...why not anodize them.
From clients I have that do a lot of anodizing, they stated that its not 100% easy to hit an exact target for thickness. They have to usually etch with a caustic to open and activate thesurface. You can easily lose 1/2 a thou that way but its uniform.
Fron there is a time, current, alloy and chemical solution factor to how much build you get.
Also, the really hard stuff is class 3 hard anodized.
As for what 94touring noted, for ferrous metals, nickel plate (specifically electroless nickel) is ideal for exact and very uniform build up.
Low pjosphorous electroless nicel is about 62C hardness. With post bake it about 70C. Nickel Boron is about 65C and heat treats to 70C.
I have been working with some of that and its a great way to build up items like lifters, rod side cheeks and restore master cylinders.
Ray |
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mikedjames
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 3416
Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2025 1:05 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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As well as dimension difficulties, once anodising breaks up it is little flakes of aluminium oxide, an abrasive. So a small chip rapidly turns into a pit. Worse than nothing.
In the case of a camshaft gear it should be being protected by a film of oil. If you are pushing it so hard that you get metal to metal contact then things will not last long anyway.
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Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23392
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2025 5:31 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| mikedjames wrote: |
As well as dimension difficulties, once anodising breaks up it is little flakes of aluminium oxide, an abrasive. So a small chip rapidly turns into a pit. Worse than nothing.
In the case of a camshaft gear it should be being protected by a film of oil. If you are pushing it so hard that you get metal to metal contact then things will not last long anyway. |
Yes and your second point is why it might just work ok. One would hope that you are not getting an anodized cam gear to the metal to metal point.
But, all of that said, speaking to a couple of my anodizing shops about 3 years ago.....I asked them if someone approached them to anodize a few camshaft gears....."what thickness tolerance could they guarantee?" (Not that these shops take automotive work....this was purely hypothetical).
They asked what kind of tolerance I thought I needed. With a handful of calculations and a couple of measurements.....literally I painted a spare oversized gear very lightly with a laquer until it gave me an acceptable lash.....then measured the thickness. It was not much.....about 18 microns. I figured for what I was doing that I could get away with about 15-25 microns max on that particular gear.
The guys I was speaking to said that was on the ragged edge of what they could really warrant. They stated that about +/- 8um was about it.
Yes, they can do better....but to do so usually means starting with specific alloys or specific grain structure, in a polished state that takes only a quick etch dip that removes next to nothing as it activates the surface.
Taking all of that in....told me that while anodizing is not out of the question to upsize a cam gear by say....a half thousandth.....its something that needs to be part of the process from the beginning.
Not long afterwards, I realized that if I wanted to upsize the +/- tolerance of a cam gear, I could do it far more accurately by plating the crank gear with electroless nickel. With that process, I can get a very accurate, time weighted build up of about 5-6 microns (+/- 1um) every 15 minutes of plating time.
Plus, I can plate....then try the gear in the crank and test it with the cam gear.....and if it needs more, pull it off and plate some more. Ray |
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94touring
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2020
Posts: 630
Location: Tulsa - OK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2025 6:03 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| Hmm, that's a good point, you can time nickle plating and get a consistent buildup. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 3008
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2025 10:34 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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any idea how well the nickel plating would hold up?
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23392
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2025 11:48 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| BFB wrote: |
| any idea how well the nickel plating would hold up? |
Extremely well.
Much better connection (in some ways) to the base metal than nickel "electroplating". With regular nickel "electroplating" one has to do an initial "nickel strike" layer to activate the surface.
You have to have the surface prepped right and the "strike" needs to be correct. It is said that overall, normal nickel electroplate has a "slightly" stronger bond than electroless (depends on who you speak to).
But, normal electroplating where you use a cathode and an anode and have to have carefully monitored current, PH, dissolved nickel load etc....is not very even in thicknes over an entire part...unless...you have specially shaped electrodes.
What that means: Lets say you have a part like a master cylinder and you want to EVENLY "electro" plate the bore with copper, nickel or zinc. Electroplating is a "line of site" operation.
This means that you put the part in the electrolyte which has dissolved ions of the metal you are plating. You have an "anode" of the same material hanging in the liquid close to the part you are plating. That anode has to be 99.99% pure. Its not cheap. The positive wire is connected to this.
The negative wire is connected to the part you want to plate. It is the cathode. When you put power to it, it pulls ions of metal out of the liquid BETWEEN the anode and cathode. It operates in a straight line. What it pulls out of the liquid is stripped off of the anode and replenishes the liquid.
BUT....the anode cannot SEE into the bore of the master cylinder so you may only get some thin coating on the inside and thick coating pustide where the cylinder is facing the anode. To do it right you have to have a rode shaped anode sticking inside the bore.
Electroless nickel does not have this problem. You just keep the electrolyte flowing over all surfaces (fish tank pump) and stirred up and replenished and at correct temperature.
So, electroless nickel does not require a "strike" or seed/primer layer and is super uniform in thickness and is ionically connected to thebare metal.
To do this, the metal has to be very clean. Usually a caustic etch, then a clean and rinse in distilled water and trisodium phosphate, a dip in distilled again...preferably at about 185* F....which warms up the part. A quick check in a wetting agent mixed with water to make sure that no water beads up...then straight into the plating bath.
The higher the polish level you have imparted to the unplated part, the smoother and tighter grained the nickel plate will be.
Electroless nickel comes out at 62-65 C hardness and can be post baked to get 70C or more. Very hard and slick. Rust proof.
Ray |
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Stillhavemystuff
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Joined: April 08, 2015
Posts: 8
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 10:09 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| DesertSasquatchXploration wrote: |
| The anodized dust coming off the wear areas was so destructive in your engine hell no. |
Berg has been hard anodizing their shadek oil pumps for years to bring them closer to correct outer diameter specification. You can definitely see the wear areas on the internal areas of the pump, wonder how much damage is happening due to the particulate. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23392
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 10:37 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| Stillhavemystuff wrote: |
| DesertSasquatchXploration wrote: |
| The anodized dust coming off the wear areas was so destructive in your engine hell no. |
Berg has been hard anodizing their shadek oil pumps for years to bring them closer to correct outer diameter specification. You can definitely see the wear areas on the internal areas of the pump, wonder how much damage is happening due to the particulate. |
What desert sasquatch was speaking of was large flakes from poor adhesion and cacking. Worn off anodizaing is microscopic and certainly not amy more or less abrasive than grit that comes through your air filter and gets in the oil.
As long as its below about 0.002" it will not cause any issues.
That being said, I wonder why they did not just mask the unner bores before anodizing.
Ray |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3879
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| Berg anodizes their oil pumps… |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3515
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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Oil pump gears are not anodized.
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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DesertSasquatchXploration
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Joined: April 16, 2021
Posts: 1051
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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They are hardened steel and work great
_________________
Key is to have downward travel Preload keep both wheels on the ground at all times once you lift a tire your DONE. Guys worry about clearance instead think of the opposite you want the suspension to drop that tire in the hole and keep you going. A spider for example they keep their body low but their legs can reach pretty far so they don't (bottom out) |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23392
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| Stripped66 wrote: |
| Oil pump gears are not anodized. |
I assume they are speaking of the aluminum Shadek pump bodies and not the gears. For type 4 there have been pump to case tolerance issues for years. Anodizing can fix that.
Also anodizing down in the gear bores is a good way to tighten up pump body to gear tolerances if necessary.
Ray |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3879
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 7:05 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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| Yes, the housing…I then DFL coat the gears |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3515
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2025 7:44 pm Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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I missed "any other parts for that matter" in BFB's original post and was puzzled how oil pump body tolerances were relevant to his question about anodizing cam gears.
Sorry...that's my myopia. Carry on.
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3879
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2025 5:30 am Post subject: Re: anodizing ? |
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No problem, it definitely makes a more durable surface.
Regarding the aftermarket aluminum cam gears, I couldn’t recommend them to anyone. Too many horror stories about them out of tolerance and falling apart.
Find good originals or go with steel straight cut gears. CB 1399’s are quiet |
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