Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts New!  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
How burnt is too burnt?
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Basilbomb
Samba Member


Joined: September 30, 2006
Posts: 833

Basilbomb is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: How burnt is too burnt? Reply with quote

Upon pulling my engine ('80 Riviera) I found that the PO had burned the clutch. He had replaced the clutch hydraulics just before I bought it so it was giving him some trouble, 'though he waited too long. The clutch works fine but the disc is dark (though not very worn), the flywheel is cracked and discoloured and the pressure plate has some hot spots. The throwout is a gonner. The question is do I have to do a complete clutch kit ~$250.00 even if this old one was working okay?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mightyart
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2004
Posts: 6188
Location: Portland, Oregon
mightyart is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have it out I'd do a whole clutch kit, It would suck to have to pull the whole thing out in a couple of months because it was more worn than it looked.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Captain Pike
Samba Member


Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: The Topless Bar On Mustafar
Captain Pike is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

replace the flywheel as well
_________________
Whisper__"If You Build It_______It Will Run"

All Current
1959 panel van, 1966 single cab. 73' 181. 91' H6 Vanagon(Under construction).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
r39o
Samba Polizei


Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9703
Location: San Diego
r39o is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill W wrote:
replace the flywheel as well
Check or remachine the flywheel as needed.

New pressure plate and disc are cheap. Might as well replace the input transmission shaft seal and the flywheel seal (with the VW one) to be sure while it is all out. Maybe even the pilot bearing. Don't forget to inspect and be sure the clutch actuating parts are not worn out too.

Good luck...
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Basilbomb
Samba Member


Joined: September 30, 2006
Posts: 833

Basilbomb is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was afraid someone would say that... Confused Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Terry Kay
Banned


Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331

Terry Kay is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easy for us to advise you to do it all, but it's the only way to do the clutch right.

If that flywheel has visable cracks that you can report--throw it out.
If it's heat discolored it has to be distorted.
The pressure plate has to be junk too--along with the disc.
Just toss it all and replace it all.

You'll write a thank you note here one day--: )
_________________
T.K.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
r39o
Samba Polizei


Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9703
Location: San Diego
r39o is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is THE way I do the job for myself. There is no sense what so ever in tryig to cheap a clutch job out. The clutch parts and what not ARE the cheap parts of the job. The R&R is the big pita, time consuming part of the job. Do you want to do the job twice? Thought not, no body does.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Basilbomb
Samba Member


Joined: September 30, 2006
Posts: 833

Basilbomb is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Course one could learn to speed shift and then a clutch becomes redundant. Save a few bucks.... Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
scottcollins72
Samba Member


Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 134
Location: Coquitlam B.C. Canada
scottcollins72 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah until the tranny explodes from misuse Rolling Eyes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tds3pete
Samba Member


Joined: April 04, 2004
Posts: 914
Location: Seattle, WA
tds3pete is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I always say...."When in doubt, yank it out"
_________________
'58 Westy camper-come and gone
'73 Westy-bought new in Holland,now gone
'86 Syncro weekender-come and gone
'79 Westy...Oscar
'95 Eurovan Camper/5 spd...Marsha Mellow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Basilbomb
Samba Member


Joined: September 30, 2006
Posts: 833

Basilbomb is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that these vans are like sailboats, the deeper you look, the more you have to replace, and the money never really stops flowing. I think the only solutions are:
1) Bad eyes
2) A rich aunt who leaves you lots of money
3) The ability to convince yourself that if you ignore it it don't exist. It's amazing how long you can pull this one off. Works for most POs Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tencentlife
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 9996
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
tencentlife is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Boat: a hole in the water, lined with wood, that you pour money into."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
tencentlife
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 9996
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
tencentlife is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the above is well-considered and very good advice, if you ask me. Best to replace questionable components if you can afford to. But I'm going to offer a contrarian view. How questionable are the components? None of us can really tell from here, with just your brief verbal description. If you are short on cash, or unwilling to spend what you have, you should do some more legwork before you make a final decision. The only replacement for money is time.

To start with, you need to take your flywheel to a reputable machinist and get his opinion of it, while he has it in his hands. Scoring and heat bluing will definitely prevent your knowing if you have a usable core or not. Only a qualified person will be able to tell, by inspecting it himself. If he needs to grind it smooth to give you his final opinion of it, pay him to do it. That's because it's usually only $25 to get a flywheel reconditioned. You should be able to gamble that much against a couple hundred dollars or more to replace the flywheel. These are forged flywheels, they don't often crack. Make sure what you think are cracks really are, before you boat-anchor this expensive component.

You should also ask the machinist to check out your pressure plate with a straightedge. Hot spots on the pressure plate are not a definitive sign that the plate is warped; they can be expressions of the irregularities in the flywheel. That can be measured easily, and it is also easy to assess the strength and evenness of tension of the pressure plate springs. Once again, a qualified technician can tell, if you let him check it out.

Unless the disc is in good condition, unburned with lots of wear material remaining, then you should replace it as a matter of routine. And the TOB is always replaced, unless you know it's new. That's because these components are designed to wear, and are quite cheap. So is a new mainseal.

The reason I'm saying this is because I think that it is especially easy to R&R the tranny on one of these vans. If I were in your shoes, and had little money to spend, I would be checking out the stuff I have to see what is really usable, so I could get the van back on the road without breaking my bank. If you're not qualified to assess the components, take them to someone who is. If they're all truly trashed, then it is what it is, and you'll have to figure out how much you're able to spend. But if some of them are serviceable, then you could run for a bunch of years on them before you need to do the job again. And it's not such an ugly job, so maybe that's worth it to you. Bottom line is, I sure wouldn't go out and spend 4 or 5 hundred dollars based on the opinions of a bunch folks who have a couple of sentences to go on. Spend a little more time, find the real answers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Captain Pike
Samba Member


Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: The Topless Bar On Mustafar
Captain Pike is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see a purple flywheel with cracks I toss it all. Pilot,rear main seal,rubber ring in the flywheel,disc,plate,TO and trans shaft seal. clean it all out and start over. Think
_________________
Whisper__"If You Build It_______It Will Run"

All Current
1959 panel van, 1966 single cab. 73' 181. 91' H6 Vanagon(Under construction).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Basilbomb
Samba Member


Joined: September 30, 2006
Posts: 833

Basilbomb is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though I was hoping someone would say naaaw, go ahead with the old stuff, I knew better. All new rubber, seals, clutch kit. New (used) flywheel (turned) for $65. I do hate tossing stuff that still works, though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
CF
Samba Member


Joined: February 17, 2005
Posts: 802

CF is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

save trhe old stuff for a later sale on e-bay as NOS Very Happy Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Alan Brase
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4093
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
Alan Brase is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basilbomb wrote:
Though I was hoping someone would say naaaw, go ahead with the old stuff, I knew better. All new rubber, seals, clutch kit. New (used) flywheel (turned) for $65. I do hate tossing stuff that still works, though.

Yes, I hate tossing good stuff, too. I've NEVER seen a cracked type 4 flywheel.
I'd measure the old disc and compare the thickness with the numbers for a new one. Check the springs of the disc center for wear and looseness.
Throwout and pilot bearings usually last a really long time, but damage stuff when they fail, so inspect carefully. I have NEVER replaced a pilot bearing in 25 years of working on VW, except for when I had a crank or gland nut (type one) out. And never a failure, either.
Two things that often fail and people are not always aware of:
1. The release forks (plece where the TO bearing sits) wear unevenly. I believe this is what ALWAYS causes the bad clutch chattering that often plagues us. Use a caliper to measure the distance on each side. I use a Dremel tool to re-face the surfaces to a curved profile. If getting a new fork, get a GENUINE one.
Don't thank me, it was Peter frm Vanagon Cafe that first brought it to my attention.
2. The early Vanagons used a rubber hose like a brake hose at the transmission. these fail and plug up, letting the clutch slip for a few seconds. Funny, it will slip at first, then grip fine.
Like tencent says, it's pretty easy to pull the tranny. go ahead, do it on the cheap. And if your clutch is slipping, drive it gently. You can limp quite a while.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
flyingCoyote
Samba Member


Joined: January 14, 2006
Posts: 514
Location: Burp Hollow, OR
flyingCoyote is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Basilbomb wrote:
3) The ability to convince yourself that if you ignore it it don't exist. It's amazing how long you can pull this one off. Works for most POs Very Happy

Yes - and turning the radio up really loud to drown out the symptoms has been scientifically proven to double the amount of time you can do this
_________________
1985 Vanagon GL / homebrew camper (daily driver)
1974 Super Beetle (Wife's daily driver)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Terry Kay
Banned


Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331

Terry Kay is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Go Ahead, do it on the cheap"

Al,
I'm so dissapointed in you I'm gagging---

If a guy enjoys, get's off, rollng around under his Van, eating dried up grease, and getting rust and dirt grime in his eyes, smashed finger's---yea go for it---

Phooey----

And here I thought all ths time you were a perfectionist---
_________________
T.K.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Alan Brase
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4093
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
Alan Brase is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flyingCoyote wrote:
Basilbomb wrote:
3) The ability to convince yourself that if you ignore it it don't exist. It's amazing how long you can pull this one off. Works for most POs Very Happy

Yes - and turning the radio up really loud to drown out the symptoms has been scientifically proven to double the amount of time you can do this

Uh- just exactly WHAT symptoms are we talking about here? He SAID it works okay. This is a clutch in a 70 hp air cooled Vanagon. Same exact parts in a 95 hp 2.1 vanagon, so this is not a part that is particularly overstressed. I've hardly ever taken one out that didn't show some burn spots on the wear surfaces. Sure, it's a good idea to use a straight edge on the pressure plate for flatness. Post some picts of the flywheel, if you can.
Being totally anal is a luxury I cannot afford. And hell, they usually fail someplace else, anyway!
I've ruined 2 clutches in my 87 in 16 years. both when I had tow strap hooked on it trying to pull some other vehicle. It's just not a very good tractor. (The 82 diesel works better for this with its 5.86 r&p!) And I've hardly EVER put in any new parts but the disc. Well, I NEVER fried the flywheel or pressure plate, Duh. I know when to get the tow rope! Yeah, a few times putting in new pressure plates trying to get rid of chatter, till I read Peter's article on the Vanagon list several years ago.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB