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gerg
a.k.a. 6volt65
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 5454
Location: Monroe, LA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: |
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I saw some pistons the other day that had oil holes drilled from the oil ring deck through to the wrist pin boss - looked like a really cool way to divert oil straight to the pin rather than just splash.
Has anyone done this themselves?
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Gerg
. . . I got 99 problems and my bus ain't one . . .
'65 Sunroof Beetle
'65 Vert
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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I choose this as a standard when designing forged pistons... The split oil return is really good at keeping pins lubed better...
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
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gerg
a.k.a. 6volt65
Joined: April 25, 2003
Posts: 5454
Location: Monroe, LA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Darren Gurrola showed those to me when I was in his shop.
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Gerg
. . . I got 99 problems and my bus ain't one . . .
'65 Sunroof Beetle
'65 Vert
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17589
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bones 53 wrote: |
| If one was using the oil bypass system Jack S sells where the pressure relief valve(s) are plugged would that allow the squirters to be useful? |
I don't think the stock oil cooler will last long when you double the oil pressure. |
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Jake Raby
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Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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And running all that excess pressure just kills power....
The 911 squirters are interesting pieces..
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
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Marty Staggs
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Joined: October 18, 2003
Posts: 357
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
Thanks, you've just saved a bunch of people a whole bunch of money! |
SO mean to say that the motor never sees any more than 28 PSI oil pressure? Are you HIGH??? 
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1432
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Joined: October 08, 2006
Posts: 399
Location: so cal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="slowtwitch"]Would v notching the rods preform the same function???
[img]http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f109/slowtwitch/notchedrod2.jpg[/img][/quote]
I have found that notching the rod can be more affective if it is done at the side of the cap (not the beam) which comes closest to the opposite piston and pin at BDC. In this way the notch serves two purposes, first to allow more fresh cool oil into the bearing (if it can't get out, it can't get in) secondly, delivering the escaping oil when and where it will do the most good. |
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Marty Staggs
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Joined: October 18, 2003
Posts: 357
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| Anyone know at what pressure does the stock pressure relief valve dump excess pressure to the sump? I think it is below 45psi, rendering the squirters useless. |
You CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about.
On average, your motor will have 10 PSI per 1000 RPM's minimum. Yes the bypasses start to bleed off pressure but they dont stop it at 28PSI. 
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Marty Staggs wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| Anyone know at what pressure does the stock pressure relief valve dump excess pressure to the sump? I think it is below 45psi, rendering the squirters useless. |
You CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about.
On average, your motor will have 10 PSI per 1000 RPM's minimum. Yes the bypasses start to bleed off pressure but they dont stop it at 28PSI. |
while this is true marty alot of engines don't see the 45psi that the squirters would need to operate when the oil is at operating temperature....mine doesn't....tops out at about 42psi hot....so the relief valve is bleeding off enough to keep the squirters from working in an engine like mine...(and most i've had)
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| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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babyblueoval
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Joined: February 24, 2002
Posts: 124
Location: Central Arkansas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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A while back I talked to AJ Simms about this modification and he made it sound like the best thing since sliced bread.
I mentioned it to Mark Herbert later and he talked me out of it. He said of all the cases he had ever worked on that had them installed, at least one was clogged so he just plugged the others.
Is this not really a problem. The idea sounds great and I know many, if not all, new cars have them.
Has anyone checked them on a case with a fair amount of miles on them?
Is there anyone that would be recomended for this modification? I'm planning on having Steve Hollingsworth or Dennis at Valley VW sleeve my lifter bores. Since this is Thanksgiving (Happy Thanksgiving everyone) does anyone know if either of them can do it?
Thanks |
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nsracing
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Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9744
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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The only way to find out is to make a test and see how much pressure it will take to see the squirt.
All that is needed is a nice piece of tubing and machined to the size of the ID of the main bearings and pump some oil and push some pressure that you can read. Just watch the quality of the squirt and there.
The size of the hole will determine if any pressure drop will be neglegible.
This is a simple drilling operation...nothing more.
I like the hole up high so it will make its trajectory to about middle of the back of the piston. |
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Marty Staggs
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Joined: October 18, 2003
Posts: 357
Location: So Cal
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| bugninva wrote: |
| Marty Staggs wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| Anyone know at what pressure does the stock pressure relief valve dump excess pressure to the sump? I think it is below 45psi, rendering the squirters useless. |
You CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about.
On average, your motor will have 10 PSI per 1000 RPM's minimum. Yes the bypasses start to bleed off pressure but they dont stop it at 28PSI. |
while this is true marty alot of engines don't see the 45psi that the squirters would need to operate when the oil is at operating temperature....mine doesn't....tops out at about 42psi hot....so the relief valve is bleeding off enough to keep the squirters from working in an engine like mine...(and most i've had) |
And YOU obviously dont have a motor that could or would get any benefit from them. Your motor also sounds a bit "loose" to me.
The only people that would benefit have a performance engine with larger oil pumps that also turn more RPM's.
This would be a modification for a "higher end" type motor and not the typical daily driver or budget project.
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turbo_bob
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Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 293
Location: Victorville CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| Marty Staggs wrote: |
| Yes the bypasses start to bleed off pressure but they dont stop it at 28PSI. |
If using the stock springs & pistons it is around 50 PSI to protect the stock oil cooler.
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turbo_bob
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Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 293
Location: Victorville CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Thats why one needs a 30mm pump when using the squirters, you need the extra volume to supply the proper oil pressure.
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Marty Staggs wrote: |
[
And YOU obviously dont have a motor that could or would get any benefit from them. Your motor also sounds a bit "loose" to me.
The only people that would benefit have a performance engine with larger oil pumps that also turn more RPM's.
This would be a modification for a "higher end" type motor and not the typical daily driver or budget project. |
someone forgot to pull the stick out of their ass this morning..... you have to realize that you OBVIOUSLY like blankets statements....such as:
| Marty Staggs wrote: |
You CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about.
On average, your motor will have 10 PSI per 1000 RPM's minimum. Yes the bypasses start to bleed off pressure but they dont stop it at 28PSI. |
maybe you should be more specific on what YOU speak of, instead of adding qualifiers afterwards.... the OP did not specify if his engine was a stocker or a staggs spankin mountain motor.... 
no need to insult my, actually, very "tight" engine because you are in your own world.... you wanna say you need a big oil pump, fine....but don't be a prick...
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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vwdmc16
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Joined: January 12, 2006
Posts: 1734
Location: sacramento, CA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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heres another approach, on the STF there has bee a great thread about Jonas Linder, a crazy Swede making a sick ass turbo type 4 from scratch and with little money, any who he had a few top end cooling issues so a person by "peumansjoris" suggested some cheap oil squirter ideas, heres the link, it is around half down the page.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=88864&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180
as you'll see the oil is pumped in from the outside, the oil pressure sensor port. so you could turn it on or off easily. the jet could be aimed manually too to get it in the sweet spot.
my idea would be to have a pre set pressure switch (say 45psi?) also on that external line and that could trigger a small solinoid valve to turn the external system on/off and have a manual overide for warm ups or something.
that could solve just about all the problems and on a budget
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17589
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Marty Staggs wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| Anyone know at what pressure does the stock pressure relief valve dump excess pressure to the sump? I think it is below 45psi, rendering the squirters useless. |
You CLEARLY do not know what you are talking about.
On average, your motor will have 10 PSI per 1000 RPM's minimum. Yes the bypasses start to bleed off pressure but they dont stop it at 28PSI. |
I guess you don't understand how a pressure relief valve works. I have seen that silly 10psi/1000rpm spec people toss around, and it simply can't exist in a hydraulic system that has a pressure relief valve. With a positive displacement pump, if you double the rpm, you double the volume that is pumped. Given a fixed leakage, you will see a doubling of the pressure. However, with a pressure relief valve, the leakage will drastically increase once you hit the relief valve setting, therefore limiting the pressure in the system. The pressure may not hit a solid limit, depending on the volume of the pump, the flow capacity of the relief port and the viscosity of the oil. In other words, it is possible to exceed the pressure rating of the relief valve, but you will never see a linear 10psi/1000rpm.
My claim is that you will never have a continuous 45psi of oil pressure at cruising speed when you want the squirters to be cooling the pistons. |
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17589
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Marty Staggs wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
Thanks, you've just saved a bunch of people a whole bunch of money! |
SO mean to say that the motor never sees any more than 28 PSI oil pressure? Are you HIGH??? |
I never said the engine will not see more than 28psi. I just said the squirters won't work. |
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A.J.Sims
Banned
Joined: December 11, 2003
Posts: 1016
Location: LowBugget.com 982 N Batavia A4 Orange Ca 92867
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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The way i add piston squirters is correct. 
We do all the work in house.
I use to use Rimco for the Porsche style but after some testing i notice that most motors when cruising would not se 45psi all the time or enough to take full advantage.
In my motor I se higher oil temps around 10* but can se 30* and lower head temps. All test were Back to back in the same motor. My turbo motor has them and it has over 45,000 miles on it. when going to Vegas on the Gean Berg cruise up the Baker grade with outside temp at 113* my oil temp was 227*, Sump temp 189*, head temp was 298*. Doug Berg had to look at my temp gun as i pointed it to se how cool the motor was running. I now use our piston squirters in most of the turnkey turbo combos that are trying to push that pump gas edge. It is $120 extra, it was $160 when Rimco was doing the work.
True a hole that is the "wrong size" would bleed off psi. 
PS. If you have crap going through your oil that can block anything, you have other problems!
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propflux01
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Joined: June 03, 2006
Posts: 501
Location: Central Arkansastan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| The stock pressure relief system is designed to start relieving pressure at 28PSI. it Will not, however, limit total pressure to that 28psi as there is too much volume and pressure for it to do that, hence why you see that 40+ PSI at speed. It is mainly designed to prevent excess pressure that would occur if it wasn't there. This is why those booster springs work to increase pressure. If you were to remove the spring, and stack a bushing or bunch of washers to prevent the piston from uncovering the sump return port, you would see an amazing amount of oil pressure (provided you didn't blow out your cooler first). |
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