| Author |
Message |
Ellis' Bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2006
Posts: 650
Location: Phoenix
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:14 pm Post subject: Drag Bug Fans |
 |
|
| Just got CB's electric fans that fit on top of the cylinder tin. Does anyone have pictures of how they attached theirs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If they're the regular "Dayton" fans like this, i'll tell you all about them:
Nothing againts CB, just the fans themelves. The fans suck.
If you run a head temp gauge, you'll see they don't even provide enough cooling for going down the track 1/4 mile at a time. Here's my experience with my drag car.
No cooling at all, just a bare engine hanging out in the breeze, and i'd go through the traps at about 350-375 head temps. This is from starting the car up, skipping the burnout, and make the pass. I'd shut the car off after the finish line. Didn't run hot at the finish line, but sitting and idling it woud heat up pretty quick.
Bought the Dayton fans from Granger and modified my engine tin and thought I was in good shape. Same routine, start the car, go around the staging lanes, make my pass. Only now there is so little airflow going around the heads and cylinders my head temp gauge is climbing (fast enough you could watch it) and was at 425 as I crossed the stripe. I shut the car off and left the fans on to cool it off. Rediculous. Just sitting and idling the head temps would climb almost as fast as no engine tin at all.
I mentioned my findings to another local that ran the fans and he said "I've never had that problem with my car" to which I replied "You don't run a head temp gauge". Thought for a minute and replied "I don't want to, do I?" LOL.
At least with a regular fanshroud I could drive around the pits with no heating problems and go through the traps at 350 degrees and be able to leave the engine running to drive it back to the pits. With a dry sump pulley on the engine I didn't even loose any ET running the belt on the thing.
All I think these fans are now are "monkey see, monkey do". Hey, I did it too. Anyone who's anyone has these fans on thier drag cars, right? So they must work, right? No, they don't help with head temps. Next time you're at a race, check to see how many of these cars with these fans run a head temp gauge and have the sender mounted under a spark plug. You'd be suprised how many people are out there "flying blind".
I raced a few events with only a fanshroud (using a dry sump pulley), no cylinder tin or anything, and my engine ran cooler than it did with these electric fans. In fact, it ran cool enough at the track to drive it around, and by not having cylinder tin surrounding it it cooled off VERY fast between rounds as well.
Now, i'm not saying any of this would work on a street car, but for put-puting around the pits, this is valid info backed up by actual first hand experience. I'm not parroting this.
In the end, since I dumped $100 into these BS fans, and a center mount alternator stand (and had the engine looking pretty cool IMHO), I had the option of going back to a standard fan shroud, or try switching to E85 to get the engine to run cool enough to make the fans work. I went with the E85 and am glad I did. The system works well now that the engine doesn't make any heat.
Just my personal findings. No guesses. 
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Tom
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1662
Location: Marshallville Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Granted that they don't do much at all during times the motor is running.
They do, however help a whole bunch between rounds when you shut the motor off.
I too ran my drag motors (at first) with no cooling whatsoever. It took 25-35minutes to cool the heads off between rounds.
This is not acceptable at most VW race events. They like to "hot lap" the Winners to get them back up to staging lanes.
With fans, the heads are good-to-go in 10-15min max. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ohio Tom wrote: |
Granted that they don't do much at all during times the motor is running.
They do, however help a whole bunch between rounds when you shut the motor off.
I too ran my drag motors (at first) with no cooling whatsoever. It took 25-35minutes to cool the heads off between rounds.
This is not acceptable at most VW race events. They like to "hot lap" the Winners to get them back up to staging lanes.
With fans, the heads are good-to-go in 10-15min max. |
That's true. This is thier only shining moment. But if you're pushing 425-450 degrees under the spark plug, you may not be able to make it through all those rounds!
As ugly/silly as it looked, the basic fanshroud sitting over the motor with no other cooling tin at all worked great. Kept the motor cool during the run, and cooled off fast between rounds.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BugMan114
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Eaallred wrote: |
| Bought the Dayton fans from Granger and modified my engine tin and thought I was in good shape. Same routine, start the car, go around the staging lanes, make my pass. Only now there is so little airflow going around the heads and cylinders my head temp gauge is climbing (fast enough you could watch it) and was at 425 as I crossed the stripe. I shut the car off and left the fans on to cool it off. Rediculous. Just sitting and idling the head temps would climb almost as fast as no engine tin at all. |
He says with the bare engine he had better temps, then with the fans installed, because the fans would actually restrict air while going down the track.
So just a thought. Can't you just make the fans removable? Such as weld a bar (or a cage) across them and maybe with the tin, so that you make a pass, comeback, and put the fans on the top of the engine, then when it cools down, take the fans off, and make another pass, and keep doing that? Has this been done before, and proven wrong? Or am i on to something here  .
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BugMan114 wrote: |
So just a thought. Can't you just make the fans removable? Such as weld a bar (or a cage) across them and maybe with the tin, so that you make a pass, comeback, and put the fans on the top of the engine, then when it cools down, take the fans off, and make another pass, and keep doing that? Has this been done before, and proven wrong? Or am i on to something here . |
Easier to just put a box fan (that you put in the window of your house) pointed toward the motor between rounds than to have a setup like that. You'll see that done at the track by guys with no cooling at all to cool it off between rounds.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BugMan114
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
OR WHAT ABOUT A WINDOW AIR CONDITIONING UNIT. Would that help any better?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Tom
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1662
Location: Marshallville Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Plenty of guys at the track have all kinds of fans plugged into their gas generators to cool off between rounds.
They have all kinds of home made contraptions.
Chuck Fryer use to have a gas powered leaf blower attached to some PVC plumbing fittings so it would sit right under the motor and blow air upward at both heads. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just run E85 and an alternator. I don't even have to touch the car between rounds even if we're hot-lapping.
Cept' to fill up the gas.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Tom
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2006
Posts: 1662
Location: Marshallville Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hey dude. How does that E85 compare to race gas?
How much more fuel did you have to add? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BugMan114
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ohio Tom wrote: |
Plenty of guys at the track have all kinds of fans plugged into their gas generators to cool off between rounds.
They have all kinds of home made contraptions.
Chuck Fryer use to have a gas powered leaf blower attached to some PVC plumbing fittings so it would sit right under the motor and blow air upward at both heads. |
Holy Crap, I was just gonna say something like that, using leaf blowers. Would that blow more then those fans? what about using a combination of all of them, an airconditioner, with leafblowers to blow cold air over the cylinders, or just use e85, lol. So if i change my stock bug over to e85, i won't need any cooling?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ohio Tom wrote: |
Hey dude. How does that E85 compare to race gas?
How much more fuel did you have to add? |
Funny part about E85. You won't really go any faster if the fuel is the only thing you're changing. E85 contains about 30% less BTU's than gasoline, but you burn about 30% more of it so it's "Even Steven".
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BugMan114 wrote: |
Holy Crap, I was just gonna say something like that, using leaf blowers. Would that blow more then those fans? what about using a combination of all of them, an airconditioner, with leafblowers to blow cold air over the cylinders, or just use e85, lol. So if i change my stock bug over to e85, i won't need any cooling? |
Leaf blowers push a LOT more air than those electric fans do. Those electric fans are rated at 170 CFM free air. A stock doghouse fan blows in the neighborhood of 1400 CFM past the engine at 4000 rpm (If i'm remembering right). Huge difference. I believe Jake Raby used a leaf blower to cool a motor during a race before, but got DQ'd because they counted the CC's the the leafblower motor on the car and it had a CC limit. Pretty funny stuff.
If you went to E85, you still need something to move air over the motor. The Dayton fans now work great on my engine with the E85 to give you an idea.
The stock cooling system is only going to cool so much heat from the motor. Build a big motor, and you can use all that power for short periods of time, but sustained, it just won't be able to 'use' more power than you had stock (think about it!) The more power you make/use, the more waste heat you'll have to shed. If you ran a fuel that made the engine run cooler and left the cooling system the same, you could make/use more power for sustained periods of time than you could with gasoline. Too bad E85 isn't avaliable more places, my bus would have a 2276 in it and would cruise cool as a cucumber at 90mph on the freeway! 
How much cooling you need on your engine while running E85 depends on how much sustained power you plan on using.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BugMan114
Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2007
Posts: 3744
Location: Ellenwood, GA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
so that means you will get worse milage, right?
_________________
1974 Super Beetle: Custom resto in progress
1972 Super Beetle: Daily Driver
1971 Std. Beetle w/ 1929 Mercedes Benz Gazelle kit
1960 Baja Bug
1969 Baja Bug
Sand Rail- Homemade
Sand Rail- FUBAR
Aircooled Airheads
Why the hell do they call it a gland nut. its obviously a big fat bolt!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BugMan114 wrote: |
| so that means you will get worse milage, right? |
Yep. The downfall to E85. Until it costs 30% less than gas, it really isn't practical to use in a daily driver. For a drag car it works better than gas for me. It has an octane of around 104 to 105 so it would work well for a lot of the hi-po VW's if they have access to it that is convenient.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ellis' Bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2006
Posts: 650
Location: Phoenix
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Crap, I thought the fans were a great idea. Well, I'm only in to them about $130.....damn shame they don't work as advertised. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
"Drag Bug Fans"
I thought this would be a thread about being a fan of drag racing. 
Has anyone tried using a centermount fan shroud, close off the front air intake hole, then install a V8 race style cooling fan on the rear hole to blow through the shroud and down into the stock cylinder tins? these can be obtained up to 1000 CFM for mounting direct to liquid cooled radiator cars.
It is not the same CFM as a stock setup, but a large amount more than the Dayton style fans.
_________________
Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hemifalcon
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2005
Posts: 1483
Location: Union Grove, WI
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
With those fans having their outlets pointing to the rear of the engine, they are doing less than if they were pointed forward and had something similar to brake cooling duct hoses attached to pull cool air into them. Rather than pulling hot air off of the top of the engine-- At least with no real engineering credentials--this would seem to be a better idea. Especially if you are running them down the track those hoses would allow cool air to be forced through them essentially increasing that 170cfm ability. This just makes sense to me I guess. But then again, those hoses would add more weight if you are that concerned. :?
_________________
'62 VW Bug Sedan (Ruby Red)
Resto pics> http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v697/hemifalcon/Bug%20resto/?start=all&paginator=top |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
|
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
? these can be obtained up to 1000 CFM for mounting direct to liquid cooled radiator cars.
It is not the same CFM as a stock setup, but a large amount more than the Dayton style fans. |
They are rated at zero static pressure. Once you put a restriction on them (like blowing through a shroud, a radiator, through the cooling fins fo heads and cylinders) the CFM of the fans drop rapidly. The stock belt driven fans work much better than electric fans on the radiator. Electric fans on the V8 cars have thier place on engine bays that need to be cleaned up or an engine swap is done where the stock fan/shroud combo is no longer going to work.
_________________
Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
rgdedge
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 864
Location: Seymour, TN
|
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have seen a drag bug with a 36 hp shroud with a heat/ac blower motor from a jap car( I think mitsibushi) bolted in place of the generator. Dont know how well it cooled though.
Tim |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
