Auto Trans Engine Install Nightmare

[Andre4]

Thanks for the scans and all the info! Yes, Although I initially tried to pull the engine without removing the three flex plate bolts I have been placing the TC in the tranny and raising the engine to it. I won't do anything with those three bolts again until the engine is in and I can turn it!

[Andre4]

OK so today I took my torque converter to a VW place and tried slipping it on a vanagon auto tranny. It slid right on and seated properly. Now I know what it's supposed to feel like and no matter what I do it won't go in like that on my trans. I took the pump rod out and rolled it around on various flat surfaces... It seems straight to me. I'm going to go drop that transmission but does it seem likely that someting in the trans is damaged?

Thanks,
Andre

[wvukidsdoc]

Andre, I'm wondering if your turbine shaft has worked out a bit and won't go in fully. If indeed like you say the pump shaft appears deeper in than the picture, something is wrong there. I know the turbine shaft just slips out from the other side when the tranny and final are separated. I also know that seating the tranny on the final is always a PITA because of the pinion and turbine shafts seating right, always takes a lot of fiddling and jiggling. I don't recall specifically if the turbine shaft can work out a little or not in that direction (toward the engine.) But as always if it doesn't look like the pic, something is incorrect, perhaps try jiggling the turbine shaft with a little pressure in. At most give it a LITTLE tap with a PLASTIC faced hammer. At least you now know the goal, perhaps the Vanagon tranny is FS? Again from the tranny side of things, nothing changed correct? Same tranny, converter, starter, flexplate (not that it seems to matter since it seems the TC seating is the issue.) The pump shaft is the longest thing spreading those parts though normally. It goes from the stationary (well spinning with the engine) fixed splined socket in the center of the TC, all the way through to the very front of the tranny into the pump, such that the pump is always spinning at full engine speed. The turbine shaft goes to the moveable turbine inside the TC, which is coupled to a mating one inside the TC shell rigidly attached to the shell (again rigidly attached to the spinning engine via the flexplate) with the two bound by hydraulic oil under pressure. No real "gears" per se inside a TC, just two sets of turbine fins, just like a jet engine, except both are turning, one with the engine, one with the tranny. Nice cutaway not that it helps but does show how they work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter

John

[Andre4]

The flex plate, starter, pump rod, torque converter and transmission are all the same pieces that were in my van when I blew the motor. Is my transmission an 010? I thought it was an 090. I suspect I'll need to know because I think I'll be looking for one...

Here's what the splines and shafts look like with the pump rod all the way in. I have to turn it to get it to catch the splines and this is what I get:

That wikipedia bit on the torque converter is quite good, as usual I entered into this knowing what I wanted in the end but not much understanding of the process I was messing with!

Andre

[germansupplyscott]

something's wrong in the photos.

the middle (turbine) shaft is not all the way in. it should be flush with the pinion shaft and the pump shaft should protrude.
_________________
SL

[VDubTech]

[Andre4]

Well shucks I wish I had taken a photo before. I've pulled the transmission now (and dropped one end on my hand - naturally.) What are the chances I can gently tap that shaft back in and everything will be fine? Or is it new tranny time?

Thanks to all for the help along the way here. I do believe this mystery is finally solved!

Andre

[germansupplyscott]

the shaft will push into place. you should not even have to hit it, just rotate and push with your fingers.

this is why i suggested you measure the relative location of the mounting planes to verify there was an issue. but you took the transmission out instead of picking up a ruler and straight edge. the transmission is a lot heavier. oh well, it's all part of the learning curve...
_________________
SL

[Andre4]

Thanks Scott:

Yes, I cannot disagree that I should have done as you suggested in the first place. I read your last post with my wife and she looked at me and said "that sounds like the sort of thing that I tell you all the time!"




I would have smacked her but my hand is too sore.

Andre

[huskydog]

andre

we can change this into a manual if you like. an investment into a set of quality calipers is needed.

[wvukidsdoc]

Actually as I've told Andre by PM, no measuring of anything was needed. It doesn't look like the picture, and it had to. Simple enough, read the manual volks, always...

But the picture of the actual tranny was worth a thousand words. Shame you dropped tranny, or not depending on perspective. And make sure you replace the $5, 7, 10 (what is it now) TC seal before reinstall.

John

[Andre4]

Thanks Huskydog:

If I can't fix my trans or dig up a cheap one I may have to give this some consideration. At present I'd prefer to keep it the way it is (was) but we'll see how it works out....

So I tried to push, push and turn, gently tap, gently tap and turn and then not so gently tap the shaft and it doesn't want to go back in. It is a good 1/2", maybe 5/8" away from being flush with the other spline - I am prepared to find a ruler if I need to and I wonder how far out is too far out. I am prepared also to give it a hell of a whack but I suspect that isn't the way to go.

Should I:

-keep trying, maybe with more force
-take it to somebody who knows what they are doing
-give up and find a used trans that hasn't been wrecked by the likes of me.

Maybe I DID need to pull the trans after all! If nothing else I will now be sure to check and repack the CVs and by god nobody will have as clean a transmission and transmission cavity as I will when I'm done.

Andre


63 notch
69 notch
69 buggy
71 sc
78 bus

[wvukidsdoc]

Like Scott said, it should just shove right in with finger pressure. If more than a little tap with the plastic hammer, I think in your case man I'd cart it to the local VW guy and see what he says. It does just slide into the gear or shell (I don't recall, perhaps to center of the sun gear?) it mates with on the other end relatively easily. As has been said, it will be flush with the larger outer splined shaft, and the pump shaft will..... (yeah I just can't say it anymore)

You will get it to work man, and I can't imagine you have damaged anything. Do replace the converter seal though, or have it done. Might be a good ploy actually, just take it all out to the VW guy and say, hey man can you replace the converter seal, and slip the converter back on for me, I don't think I can replace that seal straightt... Should take em all of 5 minutes and the seal. And then you don't have to admit to nothing.

John

[Andre4]

I'll take it in tomorrow. I did replace the seal, incidentally.

Andre

[germansupplyscott]

[germansupplyscott]

[wvukidsdoc]

[Andre4]

OK so today I took the trans to two VW shops and one transmission shop. The first VW place sends out their autos to the tranny shop so I went there. They looked at the trans and tried to pull the shaft out to realign it. It didn't come out. They didn't try that hard because they didn't want to mess up the splines on the outside of the shaft with vice grips or whatever. What they figure I did is seated the splines on the trans end of the shaft when I tried to tighten the engine in with the torque converter not seated - effectively starting new splines for the shaft. This is probably true, I didn't listen to my 'this shouldn't take this much effort to turn' voice and I squeezed that sucker in. I was quoted 8 hours roughly for a full rebuild or maybe 3 to just fix the problem and ignore everything else inside (I asked.) The next VW shop I went to does do their own autos and the guy I talked to figured I had probably messed up my torque converter in the process (I didn't bring it with me) and my ATF pump. The trans shop was familiar with this transmission and they didn't mention this possibility.

So are there any opinions out there on the likelihood of my having broken the pump and TC? I'm trying to dream up ways of pulling that shaft without screwing up the splines but I'm not coming up with anything.

Andre

[wvukidsdoc]

Andre, as I mentioned, you can NOT PULL that shaft. It only removes in the other direction when the final and tranny are separated. (It just slides out at that point in the direction that would be INTO the tranny away from the final.) FWIW the only things required to separate them are a 13mm wrench, a paper seal, and a big ass O-ring both of which in the day came only from VW but totalled less than $15 when I last bought a set (5-6 years ago.) It is pretty easy to pull them apart (4 bolts) and not much harder to get them together (a bit of a PITA jiggling and wiggling to align.) You got nothing to lose trying it I don't think. It will be obvious if the turbine shaft splines are damaged when you pull it apart, not so obvious the mating splines deep in there, though you can probably see em with a light. Actually I don't think the pump would suffer damage, it wasn't bottomed on the pump, the TC, I'm not sure. FWIW about any FWD VW tranny only section of the mid-late 80's and 90's will unbolt from its final section and swap onto a bus/vanagon tranny. It requires swapping the outer most bit (I'm doing this from memory at work here) the hub I think the parking lock paul engages in off the tranny between things, and pulling the valve bodies to swap off the linkages, and the drain pans, and either leaving in or plugging the Golf/Jetta box filler, but all in all it is a doable straightforward swap. A bit more complex into a vanagon as you have to abandon the cooler on a waterboxer, probably easier into a bus. This can be a cheap option at times, I've done it at least 6-7 times over the years. Used to be you could find a Jetta box for like $100-200 with low miles, then it was worth the effort, today finding one is getting tough, and they are not as heavily built internally. But on a positive note, anyone that can rebuild a early 90's VW auto from a Golf or Jetta (before the Mk3 I guess) should do a late bus for the same price and be able to do an OK job for just the tranny if they don't touch the final.

John

[germansupplyscott]