Help Me Decide - Repair Wasserboxer, Subaru, Zetec?

[rblake3]

There is a lot of great info here. You ultimately have to make your own decision based on how much money, time or effort you are willing to spend.

If I personally was in a crunch for camping season and had a dead Vanagon sitting in the driveway (like I did three months ago), I would probably be looking for another vehicle. The buy in for a reliable Vanagon is at least 5K not including transmission, axles, shocks, tires, bearings, brakes. If I did it again I would not put a WBX motor in my van either. I have a rebuild, it works now but only after I replaced the head seals after only 3k miles of "newish" motor fun. Sounds like you are in a similar situation with a motor that has been freshened up once already. Not worth the wasted money.

For an emergency camp right now vehicle you can find decent newer Subaru outbacks or legacys all over the internet for less than 8k. Put a rack and pod up there and you are set for serious camp action. Not the same coolness and convienience factors as the Vanagon but you won't have to worry about the engine too much. They haul butt over mountain passes and can actually overtake other cars at highway speeds. I used to have a Suby wagon and it was awesome. My next "general purpose" car will be a Suby wagon hands down.
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90 Vanagon Carat Wander Wagon
88 16v GTi
01 1.8T Beetle
94 Miata
Vanagon H4 E-Code Lighting Upgrade page

[jyl]

Hey guys. Thanks for all the responses. I have Internet access for five min while waiting for ferry. Will read your advice in more detail later. I am slightly leaning toward zetec/bostig option for ease of doing, long term reliability, power, etc. Ready to give up on the CA smog, wife points out we are not likely to move back there. Anyway I'll check in when get back home in a day. Thanks again.

[PDXWesty]

If it were me and coming from a viepoint of limited funds, I would make a decision after I had the mechanic pull the heads. If they were re-usable and everything else on the engine looked good, I would install new gaskets and be done with it. Might be a $1000 dollar job or less. You might get another 50k trouble free miles that way and you'd be on the road again this summer at minimal time and cost.

If you did need new heads I would probably still get it done, but I would shop it around a little. I don't know where you took your van, but there are lots of qualified mechanics in Portland. You'd still probably get another 50k miles out of it. I don't know how many miles a year you put on your van, but I only do 5-6K a year.

A couple year extension on this engine would give you time to save and plan another engine or conversion. 138k miles is not that high for the bottom end.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto

[j_dirge]

[ytsew]

I put a used Subaru EJ22 into my 84 westy a year and a half ago. I am handy with tools and have no problem with electronics so labour was cheap. Took about 100 hours of work. I love it. Works VERY well.

My neighbour did it too - he got the mechanic at the autoclub to help out as my neighbour is not too mechanically inclined.

If you can do it yourself, or with a buddy - the EJ22 is a great engine, lots of power and works well.

Unfortunately there is no one place for information, as no one has published a step by step how to. And there are lots of options every step of the way. The yahoo group is very supportive.

[ytsew]

BTW the EJ22 did not have a head gasket problem. It was the twin cam EJ25 turbo that did. Check on the yahoo groups forum, they can tell you exactly what model engines had the problem and how it was corrected.

The EJ22 is the engine that is so reliable is used for small airplane engines.

[Williamtaylor33]

[Sodo]

[bostig]

[jyl]

Thanks. The zero-time engine is pretty tempting. I live in Portland but would have to rent a pickup truck and drive to Seattle, so self-pickup vs delivery would probably be a wash.

I have to think about the reserve kit vs 9th group. I'm not really clear why you are batching installs into "groups", though I know there must be a reason, what is the difference to the user other than the $500?

There was mention of a warranty on the Bostig site but I couldn't find details. Is there really such a thing?

How easy is it to retain A/C with the Zetec? Do you re-use the Vanagon compressor, how does the bracket adapt, etc.

As the Zetec is vertical, is there a ground clearance issue? I only have a 2WD and never stray beyond a gravel road, so this probably isn't important, but just wondering.

I am pretty sure I have all tools needed except an engine hoist. For the 911 I put a jack under the engine, there isn't really room for an overhead hoist. But for the Vanagon I'd want a hoist.

[bostig]

Group vs Reserve:

Groups prepay, and have to wait 4-6 weeks. In exchange we discount.

Reserve kits are purchased by our cash up front(which we have little of typically, since cash flow can be problematic in the little micro-enterprise), so we charge regular kit price + cost of credit to buy that inventory + risk of having inventory over time = roughly $500 more per kit makes it worth our while. Value to customer for paying $500 more, buy today ship tomorrow. It's cheaper to be patient and plan ahead, but it doesn't always work out that way esp with vanagons.

The purpose of groups is to obtain the scale needed to both manufacture the kits, and to evaluate documentation, procedures, and small revisions on a continual basis, with a large enough sample to distinguish systemic vs. isolated issues. Groups may eventually stop as we get closer to the retail version/development freeze in preparation for a massive build group which we'll hold in inventory. The retail price will reflect the reserve price, but the structure will be different in that we are going to option virtually everything including phone support to provide a basic kit for lower cost entry for folks looking to gain entry but willing to give up value in areas where they might not deem it important/vital. We are hoping to freeze dev on the v2.0 within another 2-3 groups, but of course originally we were shooting for group 6 to be the last one needed... but that's grudgingly typical for the aftermarket, least we're doing better than GM.

Keeping A/C is pretty easy, Ford compressor, $35 adapter block from doc's blocks, the trickiest part is having a hydraulic place or AC shop extend/fit lines to attach to the A/C block fittings.. but even that is pretty straight forward. The ford compressor is the same displacement as the Sandens in the later vanagons, just with 10 cylinders instead of 7, works quite well.

I just posted pics to another thread about ground clearance, have a look there.

Jim Akiba

[Williamtaylor33]

[bostig]

We are a couple weeks from shipping the first set of parts to a gutsy customer in CA. The problem is, the BAR ref sticker procedure is the only chance right now, and technically, if they don't like you for instance or for any reason they can simply state that because it is OBDII and does not carry with it the trans from the donor vehicle, they will not sticker it.

So here's the value prop to our customers:

- $1500 more in parts that do virtually nothing for you(lower evap emissions, lower NOx at idle alone)
- More complexity in wiring, hoses, exhaust, and general routing
- The only problematic part of the zetec powertrain was the EGR system which is known to need replacement early and can cause annoying drivability issues.. which we'd be adding back in(and it does nothing for you, not better mpg, you don't need it to pass the actual CA emissions etc)
- After all that, it's still only a maybe that you'll get a sticker.

Sound less than rosy? Does to me... but at least we might set a precedent with this first go around, still no guarantee.

The conversion can pass the emissions tests, but it isn't about that. And we cannot obtain an EO, they will not issue them for OBDII engine swaps.

Jim Akiba

[Steelhead]

[j_dirge]

[Tomudell]

Just a reply and my vote. I have also faced the pro's and cons cause I live in CA. I had my heart set on a 2.5 sub conversion but it is not approved in CA, only the 2.2. I was going to go that route until I found out it was going to have to be an OBDI version engine. I talked to my aunts ex boyfriend who owns a shop and worked on sub for the past 30 years and he said he would not touch the 2.5 wither way in his opinion those are all crap. FYI the years the 2.5 were the worst is any DOHC most likely 98 and earlier. Legacy 2000 - 2002, Impreza 99- 2002 and Forester 99-2002. If you stay away from those years and do a 2003 or newer you should be ok, but no guarantee or stick with a 2.2. If I were out of CA I would do the 2.5 with a newer 2.5 or better yet do the 2.0 turbo. Pro's and cons are also if you want to keep your A/C you have to get new a/c hoses made and for ground clearance would need to get the oil pan reduced. After much debate with my self I decided to go with a rebuilt engine from JLP www.jlpengines.com which will be a 2.3 115hp, with over 148 lb ft of torque. Jake there was a pleasure to talk with they have done much to their rebuilds to make them a much better engine at a good price. I for 1 wish that CA was not such a chicken shit or I would have done the subie conversion with a newer 2.5 or 2.0 turbo. Word to the wise, if you do stay there is anyone that does stay with the vw engine you might consider buying the subaru coolant conditioner as they call it (i think it is just a fancy stop leak but anyway) that is what they use in there 2.5's, I tried it in my 2.1 when I first got the leaky head gasket and it helped seal it, matter a fact I have not seen a leak since I added it. I know the problem is there so now was the time for me to make my decision to do the swap or rebuilt. Any thoughts on this conditioner, what could be the pro's and con's of using it the way subaru does in my new engine? or am y asking for problems cause it could cause my cooling system to get clogged up? any thoughts?

[morymob]

[randywebb]

[ftp2leta]

[ccisco]

I'm glad that this thread has re-started, because I'm considering doing a conversion on my Westy. I've been checking prices, and it seems to me, even with shipping the wiring harness to Canada to get it done, the Subie conversion is a lot cheaper. I've my math is correct, buying the essential items from KEP runs about 1200 dollars, then the harness is about 600 to have done. That's $1900, and there's just a ton of 1990-95 (the non-interference engines) Legacys for 500-900 to get the engine, harness, computer etc. Which would bring the total price to about 2500-2800. Does that sound about right to those who have done this, or am I totally off? If so, that puts it in the range of a cheap rebuild on a Waterboxer...