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micromotor
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2009
Posts: 46
Location: Dover, DE
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 Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: 3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding |
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| I'm ready to install my new Gerson bed panels on my '62 Single Cab. A friend was telling me about a 3M ahesive product that is used instead of welding the panels on. Is anyone familiar with this product? |
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cdennisg
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Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20802
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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There has been discussion in the body/paint forum on here, I would suggest you look there for an answer.
I have heard good things about that adhesive, in certain situations. I would think it would work just fine for what you are doing.
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LittleThunder
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Joined: May 21, 2006
Posts: 1015
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&Dan
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Joined: January 29, 2008
Posts: 1787
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm seriously considering going this route for our farkled wheelwells.
I've been looking mightily hard for a downside, and frankly cannot find a compelling reason not to use it.
Despite the knee-jerk reaction I have to gluing something together that heretofore has been joined with a weld, the data doesn't lie and its use in aerospace applications is awfully convincing. |
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williamblanda
Don't Disgrace The Eddy!
Joined: September 09, 2008
Posts: 1380
Location: Buffalo, NY
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Dan, I would still weld your farkled wheel wells shut. I would use the adhesive in place of a spot weld, not a butt weld.
My 2 cents. |
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thom
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Joined: October 12, 2000
Posts: 6148
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I've been looking mightily hard for a downside
You're not looking hard enough; laziness will do that to you. 
Panel adhesive is for panels that overlap; it requires a certain amount of surface area of the mated panels to work properly. Cars that are assembled using this stuff were designed from the group up to use it. Your bus was not. If you're dying to use adhesive to slap a car together, go buy a Saturn.
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-Thom
1956 Single Cab
1957 Porsche 356A Sunroof
1957 23-Window Deluxe
1957 Mercedes Westfalia single cab
1963 Unimog 404
1965 E-Type |
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joescoolcustoms
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Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: |
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One version of the Kenworth Road Tractor cabs are built with the adhesive and no welding. It preforms very well. But as stated, it does require a overlapping of surfaces to acheive the strength needed for automotive use. I got to tour the plant in Ohio looking at recycling their waste. The adhesive is impressively strong.
I have used the adhesive to attach a rocker panel on a mid 80's chevy pickup and worked very well. I have a panel replacement crimping tool that allows for 1/2 inch panel overlap while giving the exterior surface a flush alignment. Did it about 7 years ago and it still looks good.
Unless a crimping tool is used to allow overlap, I would not reccomend the usage on a VW. Not very many places can a replacement panel be crimped and overlapped on all edges.
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Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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micromotor
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2009
Posts: 46
Location: Dover, DE
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:29 pm Post subject: 3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding |
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| Everything I'm seeing tells me to try the 3M stuff. My question now is the applicator. There are two different guns. One goes for about $300, the other for about $75 but I can not tell what the difference is between the two. |
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partonkevin
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Joined: June 10, 2003
Posts: 478
Location: McMinnville, TN
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
One version of the Kenworth Road Tractor cabs are built with the adhesive and no welding. It preforms very well. But as stated, it does require a overlapping of surfaces to acheive the strength needed for automotive use. I got to tour the plant in Ohio looking at recycling their waste. The adhesive is impressively strong.
I have used the adhesive to attach a rocker panel on a mid 80's chevy pickup and worked very well. I have a panel replacement crimping tool that allows for 1/2 inch panel overlap while giving the exterior surface a flush alignment. Did it about 7 years ago and it still looks good.
Unless a crimping tool is used to allow overlap, I would not reccomend the usage on a VW. Not very many places can a replacement panel be crimped and overlapped on all edges. |
I bought a replacement lower doorskin panel for a 56 Ford a while back and the manufacturer actually recommended crimping and using the adhesive. They had been doing that for several years at their restoration shop with very good results. Specifically, no heat warpage and no rust at the lap seam. |
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MODIFIER
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Joined: December 09, 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: Summerville SC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| thom wrote: |
I've been looking mightily hard for a downside
You're not looking hard enough; laziness will do that to you.
Panel adhesive is for panels that overlap; it requires a certain amount of surface area of the mated panels to work properly. Cars that are assembled using this stuff were designed from the group up to use it. Your bus was not. If you're dying to use adhesive to slap a car together, go buy a Saturn. |
And you are ill informed.
Adhesives will require a face to face mating surface, and that is easily done on bus wheelwells by flanging an overlap area, or making a sleeve style backing strip to mate to the two panels.
It has been proven time and time again that these adhesives are as strong or stronger that welding.
I do prefer 3M to lord fusor for work time and brute strength.
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTtl8Tc48TcEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-bgruJgHew
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Happyasshell
USC USMC DAD OORAH!
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gfw1985
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Joined: December 24, 2003
Posts: 948
Location: Raphine, VA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: Re: 3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding |
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| micromotor wrote: |
| Everything I'm seeing tells me to try the 3M stuff. My question now is the applicator. There are two different guns. One goes for about $300, the other for about $75 but I can not tell what the difference is between the two. |
I won't dispute the fact that 3M is probably a higher quality adhesive, but I have used Eastwood's adhesive with no complaints. The tubes are smaller and come with an adapter to use a regular caulking gun. |
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thom
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Joined: October 12, 2000
Posts: 6148
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| MODIFIER wrote: |
| thom wrote: |
I've been looking mightily hard for a downside
You're not looking hard enough; laziness will do that to you.
Panel adhesive is for panels that overlap; it requires a certain amount of surface area of the mated panels to work properly. Cars that are assembled using this stuff were designed from the group up to use it. Your bus was not. If you're dying to use adhesive to slap a car together, go buy a Saturn. |
And you are ill informed.
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On which count? That the glued panels need to be overlapped, or that buses were not designed to be glued together?
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-Thom
1956 Single Cab
1957 Porsche 356A Sunroof
1957 23-Window Deluxe
1957 Mercedes Westfalia single cab
1963 Unimog 404
1965 E-Type |
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thom
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2000
Posts: 6148
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:39 am Post subject: Re: 3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding |
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| gfw1985 wrote: |
| micromotor wrote: |
| Everything I'm seeing tells me to try the 3M stuff. My question now is the applicator. There are two different guns. One goes for about $300, the other for about $75 but I can not tell what the difference is between the two. |
I won't dispute the fact that 3M is probably a higher quality adhesive, but I have used Eastwood's adhesive with no complaints. The tubes are smaller and come with an adapter to use a regular caulking gun. |
I wouldn't be surprised if Eastwood is just re-packaging the 3M adhesive and marking up the price.
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-Thom
1956 Single Cab
1957 Porsche 356A Sunroof
1957 23-Window Deluxe
1957 Mercedes Westfalia single cab
1963 Unimog 404
1965 E-Type |
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MODIFIER
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: Summerville SC
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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| thom wrote: |
| MODIFIER wrote: |
| thom wrote: |
I've been looking mightily hard for a downside
You're not looking hard enough; laziness will do that to you.
Panel adhesive is for panels that overlap; it requires a certain amount of surface area of the mated panels to work properly. Cars that are assembled using this stuff were designed from the group up to use it. Your bus was not. If you're dying to use adhesive to slap a car together, go buy a Saturn. |
And you are ill informed.
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On which count? That the glued panels need to be overlapped, or that buses were not designed to be glued together? |
Calling the OP lazy for looking at adhesives instead of welding on a nonstructural panel is something an illinformed person would say.
most cars were NOT designed from the ground up for adhesive repairs,not even todays latest cars. but ALL manufacturers have adhesive repair guidelines in place to facilitate replacing previously welded panels.
more bad info.
It is an industrywide accepted fact that todays adhesives will bond stronger or as strong as a weld seam.
follow instructions closely,pay attention to the details, and work cleanly and you can use the proper adhesive to facilitate a great repair that is stronger than any weld seam.
every time, no problems.
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Happyasshell
USC USMC DAD OORAH!
ASE MASTER TECH BODY/PAINT and MECHANICAL
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66buggie
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2008
Posts: 302
Location: wa.st
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| MODIFIER wrote: |
| thom wrote: |
| MODIFIER wrote: |
| thom wrote: |
I've been looking mightily hard for a downside
You're not looking hard enough; laziness will do that to you.
Panel adhesive is for panels that overlap; it requires a certain amount of surface area of the mated panels to work properly. Cars that are assembled using this stuff were designed from the group up to use it. Your bus was not. If you're dying to use adhesive to slap a car together, go buy a Saturn. |
And you are ill informed.
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On which count? That the glued panels need to be overlapped, or that buses were not designed to be glued together? |
X20
Calling the OP lazy for looking at adhesives instead of welding on a nonstructural panel is something an illinformed person would say.
most cars were NOT designed from the ground up for adhesive repairs,not even todays latest cars. but ALL manufacturers have adhesive repair guidelines in place to facilitate replacing previously welded panels.
more bad info.
It is an industrywide accepted fact that todays adhesives will bond stronger or as strong as a weld seam.
follow instructions closely,pay attention to the details, and work cleanly and you can use the proper adhesive to facilitate a great repair that is stronger than any weld seam.
every time, no problems. |
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zeroman
Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2010
Posts: 891
Location: Cane field
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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other than eastwood..are all the rest in a special applicator type packaging only? I was thinking of picking up some, like i said before.. paint shop guy said applicator was pushin a bill and another 30+ for the glue.
got to do some door patch panels.. Those vice grip style crimpers and some fuser seems to be the trick for it.. so many up-sides from welding.. so few downs.
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joescoolcustoms
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Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:57 am Post subject: |
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Here is the crimper I have, works very well.
In thinking about this glueing thing, I think it would be better to not have a welded panel that has the heated metal with burnt off weldable primer exposed to the elements to rust from the inside out. I have done panel replacement where I cannot get to the back side of the welded panel to clean and paint the welded surface, like a double lip fender well in the overlap area. The adhesive would seal that exposed metal and may make the repair last longer.
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/panel-crimper-478-p-12676.aspx
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Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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MODIFIER
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: Summerville SC
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
Here is the crimper I have, works very well.
In thinking about this glueing thing, I think it would be better to not have a welded panel that has the heated metal with burnt off weldable primer exposed to the elements to rust from the inside out. I have done panel replacement where I cannot get to the back side of the welded panel to clean and paint the welded surface, like a double lip fender well in the overlap area. The adhesive would seal that exposed metal and may make the repair last longer.
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/panel-crimper-478-p-12676.aspx |
Be careful with that tool.
It works with a air chisel and can get away from you quickly.
the hand held squeeze type works well for the money and the air powered type has the most control.
practice on a lot of scrap before attempting to use that tool on your vehicle.
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Happyasshell
USC USMC DAD OORAH!
ASE MASTER TECH BODY/PAINT and MECHANICAL
62 Beetle
63 Vert
64 Beetle
https://www.facebook.com/SmartFarmServices |
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joescoolcustoms
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006
Posts: 9054
Location: West By God Virginia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| MODIFIER wrote: |
| joescoolcustoms wrote: |
Here is the crimper I have, works very well.
In thinking about this glueing thing, I think it would be better to not have a welded panel that has the heated metal with burnt off weldable primer exposed to the elements to rust from the inside out. I have done panel replacement where I cannot get to the back side of the welded panel to clean and paint the welded surface, like a double lip fender well in the overlap area. The adhesive would seal that exposed metal and may make the repair last longer.
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/panel-crimper-478-p-12676.aspx |
Be careful with that tool.
It works with a air chisel and can get away from you quickly.
the hand held squeeze type works well for the money and the air powered type has the most control.
practice on a lot of scrap before attempting to use that tool on your vehicle. |
For anyone buying the tool I indicated, MODIFIER is correct. The air hammer can cause more dammage than you are trying to correct. I bought that tool back in the early 80's and it did take some practice to learn how to hold it and use it, but once familiar with it, 30 seconds and you are done.
I will be using it to replace my rear lips on my '59 SC, and maybe the adhesive too.
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Bad News Racing 2018 NORRA 1000 3rd in Class
Best Day Ever Racing 2022 NORRA 1000 2nd in Class and first All Female team to complete the race
Everyone is gifted. Some just do not open the package.
Looks like it was painted with a live chicken,polished with a brick and buffed with a pine cone |
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John Kelly
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Joined: March 17, 2002
Posts: 477
Location: Moclips WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:24 am Post subject: |
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I have never used adhesives. I can see where they would work just fine but I would not buy an old car that had been repaired that way if there were another just as decent vehicle that had been properly welded available for the same general cost.
Strength is not an issue. Both methods are strong. There are two issues that would be of concern to me....overlapping or using flanged panels creates a thicker generally lower area than a butt weld and will always require filler if done in the middle of a panel, and the flanging process changes the contours of a panel unless the line is straight, and not on a curved surface.
I think adhesives are an advancement for body shops but not necessarily great to stumble across on a classic car you just bought and are trying to restore. Still, I would use adhesives in some areas for everyday commuter cars (most of which won't be around in ten years) if I were doing collision repair for a living.
I'm also a fan of people doing whatever they want with their own car once they know the benefits and detriments of both choices.
John www.ghiaspecialties.com
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