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3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding
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zeroman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a very loud vocal minority out there that would definitely see any filler or non old process as bad.

But most people don't care..

but yea.. didnt think about the way flanging would straighten curves... be tough to fix that if you were planning on using the fender to adjust your patch panel.
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boy! This is a touchy subject, and clearly an emotional one as well. I appreciate the comments and advice.

We haven't made up our minds as to which route to take for our Bus. I guess I should point out I was well aware of the fact the join needs to be on a flange. The area of the proposed repair is more or less flat and isn't structural.

Our problem down here is we know many welders who do an excellent job- really beautiful welds, gorgeous work- but the nature of their day-to-day business is pretty thick materials, not sheet.
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williamblanda
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan&Dan wrote:
Boy! This is a touchy subject, and clearly an emotional one as well. I appreciate the comments and advice.

We haven't made up our minds as to which route to take for our Bus. I guess I should point out I was well aware of the fact the join needs to be on a flange. The area of the proposed repair is more or less flat and isn't structural.

Our problem down here is we know many welders who do an excellent job- really beautiful welds, gorgeous work- but the nature of their day-to-day business is pretty thick materials, not sheet.

Why not pick up a Hobart 140 and do the job yourself? Get some gas and you're good to go.

I just think of adhesives as a form of cheating, taking the easy way out. I know you guys aren't afraid of a project, so make it a learning experience!
Buses don't deserve to be glued togetha'
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gfw1985
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A begining welder will do a whole lot more damage than he will with the adhesive. It's not for every application, but is a viable option. I used the stuff on panels that I didn't feel confident enough to weld. I've seen a few welders that can even do a butt weld on curved panels and use no filler, but they are few and far between. Not a VW, but you get the idea.
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DasVolksRodder
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

from my experience in the autobody world, its best to panelbond when you arent relying on the said pieces for structural support. also, not glue but weld on the front and back ends as per I-Car rules.

i weld everything. its true that panelbond ( love 3m stuff but $$) holds with one hell of a tensile strength , but make you decision based on warpage from heat, ease of the installation and your wallet.

by the way joe, how is Saint Albans??? i miss it (kinda)

Joel
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zeroman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheating? It's only cheating if someone loses. Easy way out if you must, I call it progress or options. There's no right way just a right outcome. It's not taichi, it's bodywork. Work smarter not harder. I find it really hard to weld well and find the space to keep a welder around to practice with. I made a bit more work for myself yesterday trying in vain to weld with my borrowed welder
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John Kelly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe there will be a further lack of basic metal finishing skills learned by people because it is so much easier to patch with glue.

I'm glad this technology was not around when I started out. It would have taken a lot longer to learn to make my own pieces and do metal finishing. Both skills that are valuable to me.

Mig welders had this effect too. Many thought (and still do) that mig was better than gas welding because it was easier to learn. Not true. I guess that makes me part of a loud vocal minority.

Nothing wrong with glue or mig as long as you know that many times there are better options. Some skills are worth learning if you want to continue to get better at a craft. There is more free information than ever before which makes learning these skills much easier than it used to be. Of course there is more misinformation as well... from an opinionated and under-informed majority.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com
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MODIFIER
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Kelly wrote:
I believe there will be a further lack of basic metal finishing skills learned by people because it is so much easier to patch with glue.

I'm glad this technology was not around when I started out. It would have taken a lot longer to learn to make my own pieces and do metal finishing. Both skills that are valuable to me.

Mig welders had this effect too. Many thought (and still do) that mig was better than gas welding because it was easier to learn. Not true. I guess that makes me part of a loud vocal minority.

Nothing wrong with glue or mig as long as you know that many times there are better options. Some skills are worth learning if you want to continue to get better at a craft. There is more free information than ever before which makes learning these skills much easier than it used to be. Of course there is more misinformation as well... from an opinionated and under-informed majority.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

I learned everything including lead work and metal finishing at an early age and did nothing but resto work until 94.
These skills have been good to me doing collision repair as well.
I suggest the adhesive repairs for people who wish to do some repairs quickly and dont have good enough skills to buttweld,hammerform and metalfinish.
I use adhesives and my welders on a daily basis and know them pretty well.
I hope people dont think Im being an ass about the things I say about adhesives, but I have seen the results of vehicles repaired with them and then come back hit in the same panel with NO separation of the flange.
good shit.
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williamblanda
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't sound like an asshole at all, you're just embracing a new technology that many people, including myself, are reluctant to switch over to. Nothing wrong with that.
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&Dan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

williamblanda wrote:
You don't sound like an asshole at all, you're just embracing a new technology that many people, including myself, are reluctant to switch over to. Nothing wrong with that.


X2. I appreciate your candor and knowledge on this issue. You have a traditional body repair background [which many if not most of us do not] and can balance a new process against what you know works.

As far as our Bus, I look at it this way: Someone damaged the thing already by cutting up the wheelwells, so it's no longer an untouched vehicle. Well, that and a few other issues, but the point is it's not a '55 Deluxe. If I owned a '55 Deluxe, I'd be approaching the issue far differently and would very likely arrange to have the panels welded by a genius. I would also have arranged to have a dumptruck full of money back up into the front yard every morning.

I can't do the welding without learning how properly, and learning welding is learning a new art.
I make my living as an artist [big whoop] so I know how long it takes to become proficient at a new skill. A really long time. For me, that is.

Anyway, thanks very much for your thoughts on the matter.

Wonder how long it took for plastic filler to gain general acceptance?
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zeroman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what did it take for plastic filler to gain acceptance? Probably a lot of bad press and maybe even some illness due to the lead. I've never used it, but I bet it makes a lot of toxic dust and vapor depending on how much its heated. Even more-so the hurry up culture we've been cultivating over the last 60 years. Almost anything has to be slower to work than plastic filler.
Drop off a car to get a door dent repaired.. pick it up that evening.
I bet lead is better tho.

I've had to catch crap over my turbine sprayer and my electric drum kit.. Until someone actually sees em in action.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in my contracting days, I remember when PVC pipe was first introduced. It was said that it would never replace cast iron pipe, lead and okem joints. Hell, it's just plastic and glue joints !!!! Laughing I don't think there is a residential home built today, that doesn't use PVC for drain.

That being said, I will be using panel adhesive when I reinstall my vent, after it's nicely painted Very Happy

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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: 3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding Reply with quote

micromotor wrote:
I'm ready to install my new Gerson bed panels on my '62 Single Cab. A friend was telling me about a 3M ahesive product that is used instead of welding the panels on. Is anyone familiar with this product?


The deed is done. I bought the cheaper gun and two tubes. Paid $100 for the gun and one set of epoxy tubes. Instructions call for removing paint so we ground off the paint from the deck and the panels, after running a chaulk line to minimize waste. Just did get all four deck panels on with one tube of the #M 8115. The consistency is thin so the stuff is easy to work with. Working time is 90 minutes, sets up in 4 hours. The gun worked fine. Will post again in 6months or so, after I know how it worked.[/img]
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zeroman
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slowtwitch wrote:
Back in my contracting days, I remember when PVC pipe was first introduced. It was said that it would never replace cast iron pipe, lead and okem joints. Hell, it's just plastic and glue joints !!!! Laughing I don't think there is a residential home built today, that doesn't use PVC for drain.


THe house I'm living in doesn't even have PVC anymore. Its got this.. translucent "hose" that must have come on a roll. Go in the attic. There's a blue hose and a red hose. Color coded for the crap house building game.
Doesn't stop it from shaking in the walls every time the toilet stops filling.
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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zeroman wrote:
slowtwitch wrote:
Back in my contracting days, I remember when PVC pipe was first introduced. It was said that it would never replace cast iron pipe, lead and okem joints. Hell, it's just plastic and glue joints !!!! Laughing I don't think there is a residential home built today, that doesn't use PVC for drain.


THe house I'm living in doesn't even have PVC anymore. Its got this.. translucent "hose" that must have come on a roll. Go in the attic. There's a blue hose and a red hose. Color coded for the crap house building game.
Doesn't stop it from shaking in the walls every time the toilet stops filling.


That's not PVC, it's PEX. PVC is for drains, PEX is for supply. It is very easy and fast to install, and if done properly, it will operate silently. If it bangs around in the wall when a valve is shut off, it has not been properly installed.

I recently had all of my old galvanized supply lines replaced with PEX during a remodel. I love it.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

been thinking about trying it on the front apron on my super
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schell '59
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...bonding is fine...welding is fine to.


guys can aregue all you want...panel bonding can be removed with excessive heat..makes you wanna rethink. panel bondincan also separate with extreme hits and twisting,it also needs to be clamped in 2" increments...then excess is ground off...the benefit is it's great for prtection,bonding etc. but it still needs to be clamped if you can't clamp it your not getting anywhere..you could zip screw but kinda defeats the purpose.

real shops use pinch welders like factor....these are over 5k easy and work un believable...

most rely on wleding like myself but also look forward to misc panel repairs with the bonding agents...they work great on NON STRUCTURAL peices...lower qtrs,patches etc...not floors,inner rockers etc where strength is needed...it is stated in all tech sheet for these products...

all cars are pinch welded these days and were then too...seam sealers are used more today than before...bonding agaents are another quick way body shops are trying to shave time and costs....

to each his own...all the heros are dead and there are a hundred ways to skin a cat in the bodyshop world...you choose your own preferrence and go from there.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 3M panel adhesive vs old fashion welding Reply with quote

micromotor wrote:
Everything I'm seeing tells me to try the 3M stuff. My question now is the applicator. There are two different guns. One goes for about $300, the other for about $75 but I can not tell what the difference is between the two.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hand held mechanical and not the air module kind:
http://www.johnsonautobodysupply.com/7oz-Dual-Mix-Applicator-Gun.html

these fit the 3m,norton and SEM...
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