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Cerot
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Canada!
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 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: Very slow starter, is it ever *just* a bad starter? |
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| 79 2.0l FI bus with 74 trans. Starts very very slowly, you turn the key and it engages, but its turns over very slowly. Sometimes it stops turning altogether, then about 2 seconds later it gives one more whirr. Lights dim and everything between revolutions. I've cleaned every connection (yes including the trans to chassis strap), and engine is in tune and runs fine once it's started. I had the starter out and took it to a starter repair shop, he mounted it in a VW bellhousing he keeps around for just such an occasion, it made a little snapping sound and then kicked over fine, so all we did was put some oil in the end. I got it home and put it back in, it started fine for about 3 tries, and then the same thing again. It is a brand new battery that checks out good and is fully charged. Would I be safe in just splurging and getting a rebuilt starter? |
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vw_darkstar
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Joined: January 18, 2011
Posts: 176
Location: Cumberland MD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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This happend to me with a brand new starter. I got a "hot start" or "hard start" relay and everything is just fine. Some say it's a band aid for old wiring and some say that the relay should have been installed from VW originally. Both thoughts are probably right, and they work well to by pass the old wiring.
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42997
Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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I think one of your battery cables is bad internally. The fact that it whirs slowly means that a hot start relay would do nothing for you. The solenoid is pulling in.
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 Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
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Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
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RatCamper
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Joined: November 13, 2008
Posts: 3305
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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what about the starter bushing? If that's chewed out it could be causing a slow crank too.
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Your symptoms have nothing to do with having the"Bandaid" or not. Both probable problems have been mentioned. Shot battery cables or the brass bushing. And then maybe just a real puny battery.
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VDubTech
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Joined: December 29, 2002
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Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| RatCamper wrote: |
| what about the starter bushing? If that's chewed out it could be causing a slow crank too. |
Ding ding ding ding ding. That's my vote.
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First Trip in the RustyBus:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=279077&highlight=
| borninabus wrote: |
| a measurement of your rod would be extremely useful. |
| notchboy wrote: |
| my dad wasnt a belittling cock when he tought me how to wrench on cars. |
| EverettB wrote: |
One photo = good for reference.
10 photos = douchebaggery |
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Cerot
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Canada!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| It got worse last night and wouldnt even try to kick over, so I removed it. Bench tested with a vw bellhousing and it did nothing, just got very hot. Took it into starter repair shop and he's rebuilding it now, but got a rebuild from him and threw it in (along with some brand new battery cables), and it kicks over really fast. I think the starter was just ancient and on its last legs. |
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Cerot
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Canada!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| And just to add insult to injury, it's started a new little game. I disconnected the coil to test it again tonight, and when you activate the starter, and then immediately deactivate, the starter keeps cranking the engine for about 5 seconds or so. My bus has a starter button so I thought it might be sticking, but disconnecting the 2 wires on the back and touching them together, then releasing, results in the same behavior. Could the new solenoid on the rebuilt starter be bad right from the factory? |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: at the beach in Northern Wokistan
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting electrical shop
| Quote: |
| I had the starter out and took it to a starter repair shop, he mounted it in a VW bellhousing he keeps around for just such an occasion, it made a little snapping sound and then kicked over fine |
Interpreted as the solenoid engaged and the starter spun
| Quote: |
| but got a rebuild from him and threw it in (along with some brand new battery cables), and it kicks over really fast. |
Interpreted as was it the starter or the cables that fixed it?
| Quote: |
| and when you activate the starter, and then immediately deactivate, the starter keeps cranking the engine for about 5 seconds or so |
Interpreted as sounds like the solenoid hangs on the replacement.
PS - Starters can get hot because they are bad, because they are wired backwards or because the starter bearing is chewed up and the starter can't spin when mounted. Make sure the battery post that has a - goes to ground. Many VW's have battery cables that were replaced and are black as positive by mistake. We hear it here all the time.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).
George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."
Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"
1971 deluxe (sold)
1977 deluxe |
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject: Starter |
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To link to this post
| Code: |
| [url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5526134#5526134]Starter[/url] |
Hi
What is happening is the Pinion Gear is not releasing. The Solenoid is simply an electric magnet with a set of contacts. It pulls the Solenoid plunger in. When the plunger is pulled in it makes a connection between a set of contacts on the end of the solenoid. Example cross a screw driver across the the two big terminals, and the starter spins but the pinion does not come out. Cross the screwdriver from the big terminal the battery cable is on and the spade on the solenoid. The pinion comes out and the starter spins. When you let go of the starter button and De-energize the solenoid. The solenoid plunger spring is what Disengages the Pinion Gear. Since you ruled out the push button. One of two things are happening. The bushing in the Bell-housing is causing the pinion to bind or the starter Pinion gear or Shift fork are binding in the starter. At any rate the starter needs to come out.
You should have got a new bushing prt#113301155 with the starter and this should be replaced with the starter. How do you do that you ask?
What I use is a 7/16-14 blind tap (not the pointed one) with the rough ends filed down. Spray some WD-40 in the hole. Thread the tap into the bushing until it is flush with the end of the bush, you can put some tape on the tap to determine how far to thread it in using the new bush a guide.This next step is important. Use a hammer and drive the bushing in slightly. All you are doing is breaking it free. Then thread the tap the rest of the way. As you are threading it in it will be pulling the bushing out.
Tap the new bushing in with a suitable socket or a 10x50mm bolt with a nut. Lube the bushing with some anti-seize after installation. Install your starter and your done.
Hope this helps.
If the hole is too egged out. You may need an oversize bushing.
oversize starter bushing
Good Luck
Tcash
Great article by GoWesty.
The Starter Story: Rebuilt Bosch or New Gear Reduction?
Last edited by Tcash on Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:27 am; edited 10 times in total |
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Cerot
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Canada!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Well I replaced the bushing again, no change. I went so far as to get an automatic starter. Now theres a new problem. If you pull the coil wire off and turn the starter over, it is fine (as in when you push the starter button, it turns, when you let it off, it stops turning). BUT if you start the engine, it takes the starter with it and makes a terrible noise. With somebody else starting the engine, and while it's running removing both spade contacts at the top of the solenoid, it still spins the starter. So it seems that the starter gear is getting stuck in the flywheel? |
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Tom Powell
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Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4852
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| ... Many VW's have battery cables that were replaced and are black as positive by mistake. ... |
I have a #2 gauge red positive for my 69 camper. Bought it at Pep Boys. I also have the woven ground strap attached with a wing nut to a battery clamp with a stud. Much easier to dissconnect when doing electrical work or putting it into storage.
Aloha
tp |
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Cerot
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Canada!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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Since I've been going insane all day trying to figure this out, can somebody help me with some info about late flywheels/early bellhousings? This MUST have the early bellhousing on it as the regular non 228mm starters are engaging the flywheel just fine. This means either the PO put the 210-215mm flywheel on the 2.0 1979 engine, or ground out the 74 bellhousing to fit the 228mm flywheel. If they did grind it out, would a regular starter still function on the flywheel? Here is a pic I took through the starter mounting hole of everything "In Situ"
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: Flywheel |
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| Hi, from what I have read you are correct. If you use the early bell housing you have to use the early flywheel and starter. Is the picture deceiving me or are there teeth missing on the flywheel? |
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Cerot
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Posts: 286
Location: Canada!
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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No its just the angle of the picture, you cant see them past the edge of the bushing support.
I have fixed the problem apparently, I put 2 little washers (ground one side flat so it would fit) underneath the starter where it mounts to the transmission, basically pulling the starter out 1/16" or so, and it turns over and more importantly, STOPS turning over perfectly! |
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14654
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Kinda' looks like it. How about trying to get a nice clear picture? If no teeth are missing how are the wear patterns down in the teeth. Maybe keep rotating it around and checking all of it.
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Tcash
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Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12843
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:40 pm Post subject: starter run on shimmed starter fixed. |
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Hi glad to hear you got it working. They sell shims for chevy starters in different thicknesses. You may want to start looking for another flywheel and next time you change your clutch change the flywheel. Unless the starter grinds the teeth off the flywheel before then. Good luck
[img]
This is an example of bad flywheel teeth. Good Luck[/img] |
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