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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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 Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| syncrodoka wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
| presslab wrote: |
| These look like a good investment |
For waterboxer powered vans |
Saw these on a SVX powered syncro this weekend, he has a Gary Lee tire carrier and a 30" tire hanging onto it as well. He was happy with the performance and we did play rough with the cars.  |
I am just trying to help keep this thread in line with vendor disclaimers that are clearly posted in there item descriptions. |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
I am just trying to help keep this thread in line with vendor disclaimers that are clearly posted in there item descriptions. |
I don't see it. Can you quote from here?
http://gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23503
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| presslab wrote: |
| insyncro wrote: |
I am just trying to help keep this thread in line with vendor disclaimers that are clearly posted in there item descriptions. |
I don't see it. Can you quote from here?
http://gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=23503 |
Design Note: These springs are designed for the Pop-Top Vanagon Waterboxer platform. If you have a hard top Vanagon, you may see slightly more than 2" of lift. If you have an engine conversion that has a different weight or weight distribution, your Vanagon may not sit level. These springs are NOT designed to compensate for Vanagon engine conversions. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:14 am Post subject: |
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As the rear part of this kit is not adjustable in height and limited to a few stock parameter spring rates, when using the GW Fox setup and the GW springs in vans with engine conversions and or extra rear weight.... the rear will sag compared to a waterboxer powered van with the same setup.
This means that you will have to adjust the front to a lower position for the van to sit level. |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Design Note: These springs are designed for the Pop-Top Vanagon Waterboxer platform. If you have a hard top Vanagon, you may see slightly more than 2" of lift. If you have an engine conversion that has a different weight or weight distribution, your Vanagon may not sit level. These springs are NOT designed to compensate for Vanagon engine conversions. |
You must be quoting from their spring page, not the shock page I linked. Why didn't you include a link? You can be cryptic at times...
I don't see any reason why you would need to use their springs.
And the Smallcar conversion springs are different than Syncro.org ones. Syncro.org does not offer springs for engine conversions.
http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29936
| Quote: |
| We have also designed into them more strength in the rear to work nicely with Subaru and other engines as well as added heaters, racks, trailers and other added loads. |
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:38 am Post subject: |
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I would do a little research before claiming any differences between springs.
Last edited by insyncro on Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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euromog
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Joined: September 19, 2008
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Had a long drive home from the Mogfest and a few days to think about a review of the Go Westy Fox shocks and the Go Westy progressive rate springs. Also got to drive the Trailmaster suspension kit. Both vans were tintops.
I would like to try the Fox shocks with the spring rate I have on my Syncro to verify but the ride is similar. Best thing is they are firm enough to prevent bottoming and the dreaded rebound bounce even with the stiffer progressive springs. Getting to the adjustment for valving is difficult on the front and seeing what number you are on takes laying down in the dirt. A better resevoir location would help. Rears are easier to adjust but you still can't see what number you are on since the knob points up. If they had a "stop" it would be easy to twist back to the "1" position then count the clicks. However these knobs just twist round and round. Overall great shocks but you pay for them. With the one inch longer travel 930 CV joints will be a must option.
I am not a fan of the progressive springs from Go Westy. I am sure they will be softer on a Westy. They seem to be self defeating in that the progressive section of the spring is completely collapsed (binding) at rest. So that leaves the higher spring rate to be used most of the time. I would like to put one corner up on a ramp to see if there is enough spacing in the remaining coils so they don't bind. Also the engineered ride height is too tall. I have had several phone calls about CV joints clicking after installing these springs. If they got the ride height to 20" I think they would work better. On a heavily loaded Westy they probably work fine.
The Trailmaster suspension kit sucks. Typical European thinking that really stiff springs are the best for off roading. These are some kidney jarring springs. The shocks are no where near capable of controlling rebound bounce for these springs. Some mild wash board in a sand wash set the Syncro into a huge rattling oscillation at a very mild speed.
I have been driving 30MPH over speed bumps for a decade and it is nice to see others spend the dough for more choices. Just remember when adding suspension travel the CV joints need to be upgraded as well.
Disclaimer: I have sold my own Bilstein/Eibach suspension kits in the past that are a milder version of what I have on my Syncromog. Ten years later there are so many more options and a huge amount of seat time of learning. A new affordable performance kit is in the works. |
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FrankenSubySyncro
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Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 638
Location: Vancouver, WA.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
As the rear part of this kit is not adjustable in height and limited to a few stock parameter spring rates, when using the GW Fox setup and the GW springs in vans with engine conversions and or extra rear weight.... the rear will sag compared to a waterboxer powered van with the same setup.
This means that you will have to adjust the front to a lower position for the van to sit level. |
It seems like you could use any of the available springs in the front and especially the rear (.org, SC, GW, Trailmaster, Boge...) Spacers or limiting straps could be used if needed.
Even the Eibachs in the rear would probably work with lots of rate options
Why wouldn't an Eibach 5" diameter spring work on the front also? Then there are lots of choices in spring rates. My .org front spring is 5" diameter.
Maybe I am over looking something here?
I love my rear ProComp MX6 adjustable shocks because I can dial them softer when I go offroad and firmer when back on pavement. Adjustable shocks on all four corners would be ideal.
_________________
Syncronize it!
1987 Franken Syncro (converted 2WD auto)
2004 2.5 SOHC Subaru
F & R lockers, decoupler, SS, 6.17 R&P
Trans Cooler
EMPI race prepped 930 CVs and axles
Bilstein coilover front, rear ProComp MX-6066R shocks, 14" hypercoil springs
30x9.5 15" BFG Muds
Custom skid plates
Nose job (custom front bumper) http://www.flickr.com/photos/subyvanagon/sets/72157624970330925/ |
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2doorsdown
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Joined: December 08, 2010
Posts: 120
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| Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I noticed the same bind of the progressive spring at rest as well. I was wondering about that and am glad you pointed it out. |
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rfoubi
Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2004
Posts: 224
Location: Rossland BC
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:43 am Post subject: |
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So is there really that much difference in weight between engine conversions and stock? Like say a 2.5L subaru vs the 2.1 wbx?
Im having a real hard time trying to figure out a suspension setup for my van as its a bit of a frankenstein. Tin top transporter originally, with custom camper interior including bed/cupboards, dual battery setup, fridge etc. But i dont have any heavy bumpers or spare tire on the back, rear racks, nothing. Also looking to get a 1-3" lift to clear the BFG mud terrains i have now and a little better approach/departure angle, etc. NOt to mention improved ride yada yada. Should i just weigh out each corner of the van and go from there?
But yeah, as far as this fox kit is concerned, what do i need to buy/modify to make it work with a 2wd. (i will be buying springs at the same time)
thanks, this thread is awesome |
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buildyourown
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009
Posts: 1668
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| rfoubi wrote: |
Also looking to get a 1-3" lift to clear the BFG mud terrains i have now and a little better approach/departure angle, etc. NOt to mention improved ride yada yada. Should i just weigh out each corner of the van and go from there?
But yeah, as far as this fox kit is concerned, what do i need to buy/modify to make it work with a 2wd. (i will be buying springs at the same time)
thanks, this thread is awesome |
You're going to have to do some work to get that much lift. You run out of travel on your ball joints in the front and the rear swing arms are too short. 16" rear arms and new UCA will do it, but it's not cheap.
I started another thread about adopting the Fox shock to a 2wd. I think it'll be a straight bolt on w/ maybe a few spacers to make for the bottom of the front shock. I might buy the cheapest Syncro shock I can find and verify. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| rfoubi wrote: |
| So is there really that much difference in weight between engine conversions and stock? Like say a 2.5L subaru vs the 2.1 wbx? |
My Longacre scales say YES 
Knowing what each corner weighs will help dial in the spring rates, the first time or you will just have to replace the springs once.
Just starting at a given rate and buying and changing springs to see how it feels will certainly cost more money in the long run and leave you with many unuseable parts once dialed.
That ain't how I wanna roll.
I make many race car setup analogies in my posts.
This particular data acquistion is one that is done before every race, at every different track the cars go too.
If you want a certain "tuning" effect, for any vehicle, knowing these numbers is a great place to start.
Here is one of the four I use:
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| euromog wrote: |
Had a long drive home from the Mogfest and a few days to think about a review of the Go Westy Fox shocks and the Go Westy progressive rate springs. Also got to drive the Trailmaster suspension kit. Both vans were tintops.
I would like to try the Fox shocks with the spring rate I have on my Syncro to verify but the ride is similar. Best thing is they are firm enough to prevent bottoming and the dreaded rebound bounce even with the stiffer progressive springs. Getting to the adjustment for valving is difficult on the front and seeing what number you are on takes laying down in the dirt. A better resevoir location would help. Rears are easier to adjust but you still can't see what number you are on since the knob points up. If they had a "stop" it would be easy to twist back to the "1" position then count the clicks. However these knobs just twist round and round. Overall great shocks but you pay for them. With the one inch longer travel 930 CV joints will be a must option.
I am not a fan of the progressive springs from Go Westy. I am sure they will be softer on a Westy. They seem to be self defeating in that the progressive section of the spring is completely collapsed (binding) at rest. So that leaves the higher spring rate to be used most of the time. I would like to put one corner up on a ramp to see if there is enough spacing in the remaining coils so they don't bind. Also the engineered ride height is too tall. I have had several phone calls about CV joints clicking after installing these springs. If they got the ride height to 20" I think they would work better. On a heavily loaded Westy they probably work fine.
The Trailmaster suspension kit sucks. Typical European thinking that really stiff springs are the best for off roading. These are some kidney jarring springs. The shocks are no where near capable of controlling rebound bounce for these springs. Some mild wash board in a sand wash set the Syncro into a huge rattling oscillation at a very mild speed.
I have been driving 30MPH over speed bumps for a decade and it is nice to see others spend the dough for more choices. Just remember when adding suspension travel the CV joints need to be upgraded as well.
Disclaimer: I have sold my own Bilstein/Eibach suspension kits in the past that are a milder version of what I have on my Syncromog. Ten years later there are so many more options and a huge amount of seat time of learning. A new affordable performance kit is in the works. |
Agreed John and thanks for your sharring.
I own a few different German Syncro springs, some still available, some long NLA............bottomline.....stiff
Great on pavement, but poor poor for offroad, especially when the going gets tough.
Too soft of a spring will feel great offroad, but will really be scary at higher hiway speeds and under heavy brakeing.
From what I have been told, the newer GW progressives have a bit less "progressiveness", a good thing IMHO, than the earlier version.
I don't have them yet but will report my findings once I do.
There is a 25mm swarbar upgrade that will coming out of production soon, fingers crossed, that will further help on pavement handleing of lifted vans shortly.
It will be universal and with a few other products also in the works...having killer on road performance and the ability to not have them take away from offrading abilities has been in the design from day one. |
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Wolfgang16
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Joined: December 28, 2010
Posts: 41
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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Its a pity that the rear damper is only 1" longer than stock. In the rear it would be possible to have a much longer shock. If I spend so much money I must have the optimum.
_________________
Wolfgang
T3 syncro16 `89 TDI AFN, DPF, Papmahl intercooler, Seikel springs, 31x10.50R15 on T4 rims
syncro in Central Asia 2009 |
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BushChicken
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2010
Posts: 250
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Wolfgang16 wrote: |
| Its a pity that the rear damper is only 1" longer than stock. In the rear it would be possible to have a much longer shock. If I spend so much money I must have the optimum. |
The rear axles are the limiting factor. You really can't go much farther than 1" extra (with 16" trailing arms), even with 930's. |
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Wolfgang16
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2010
Posts: 41
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Trailmaster sells 2" longer shocks here and I have not heard of any problems so far. Almost all setups use the stock CV's. With 930's there should be even more possible.
_________________
Wolfgang
T3 syncro16 `89 TDI AFN, DPF, Papmahl intercooler, Seikel springs, 31x10.50R15 on T4 rims
syncro in Central Asia 2009 |
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Jon_slider
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Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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