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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Soak in carb cleaner bath. Little tub you buy.
(I do not know how effect some of the new stuff is though.)
Frequently to clean the grooves a broken ring is used to scrap out the land.
This is the old school arm strong way of doing it.
Careful on the tops and skirts as they may have a coating on them.
ALSO, remember, remember, remember there is more than meets the eyes about pistons.
Put them back in the hole you found them.
There is a gap spec for rings and you may have to size them by hand.
It is important to have clean grooves and that is about, as the rest is cosmetic except if you booger up any special coatings....
You CAN damage them with your hands.
Also, it is a great idea to match balance them to the rods or even better is to have a machine shop balance.
Or even let a machine shop set up the basic short engine, if you do not do this on a daily basis.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the piston advice r39o!
| r39o wrote: |
| This is the old school arm strong way of doing it. |
Understood...I'm being pretty careful with the pistons...I marked them all with a sharpie to indicate which bore they're from and their orientations (and re-marked them as various solvents washed off my original sharpie!).
I got them all clean last night...I didn't have to "strong arm" them with a broken ring...I got the ring grooves pretty clean with a ton of strong solvent and then running string and pipe cleaners through the grooves (and through the holes in the oil groove, which were also blocked)...On the other hand, if there was any factory coating on the pistons, I bet I burned at least some of it off with chemicals.
I did have to chip a minimal amount of carbon out of the top groove with a T-pin, but I held it at an angle so the point of the pin would chisel out the carbon, but deflect off the aluminum without scratching it.
Your post did get me thinking about using new pistons though...new ones are available on EBay for $140...but since Subaru's have a funky deal where they ship with 2 sizes of standard pistons (marked A or B), I'd probably have to get an oversize set + a cylinder bore to get proper clearance.
Also, despite repeated application of totally hazardous chemicals and judicious use of a razor blade, I was not able to get the cylinder head mating surface absolutely clean...this portion is so critical that I think I'll take the heads to a machine shop I trust to get them resurfaced...I'll mic the pistons and cylinders before I go, and if they're all a good fit, I'll bring the ugliest piston to the machinist and get his opinion on reusing it for a DD.
Thanks again for all the thoughtful advice! |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
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NO MACHINING THE HEADS!!!!!
Do it by hand with a long block and long straight edge used for cylinder heads.
If they are not warped or damaged in other ways, do not take meat off.
I have a pair of Suby heads that are junk cause one had too much meat taken off and they said they were being careful........
Make sure the surfaces are in spec via the straight edge and that is basically it, at this point.
Do NOT mess it up.....
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
Do it by hand with a long block and long straight edge used for cylinder heads.
If they are not warped or damaged in other ways, do not take meat off.
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I'm glad I posted, and glad you've already been there!
I have verified that the heads are not warped beyond .002 (or at least .002 beyond however much my machinist's straightedge deflects when I hold it against the surface)
The issue I'm struggling with is that I can't get all the discoloration from the old composite EJ22 HG off of the surface without removing meat. I'm at the point where I can see the factory swirl marks in the clean, flat aluminum surface, but between the bright factory swirl marks, I still have a darker tinted stain. Gently sliding a flat razor blade against the surface any more will start to whittle down the peaks of the swirl marks, but won't touch the darker stain in the valleys.
Have you had good luck running heads with a slightly stained head gasket surface? Or have you found a way to remove the stain so the surface looks absolutely bright, shiny, and clean without removing any meat?
Thanks again for all your help.
-Andy |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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The EJ heads don't often warp from what I've read. Shaving them off will increase the CR even more too!
I always just clean them up with some 400 grit wet sandpaper; I've never had problems. Here's an interesting thread on USMB:
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=126868
_________________
1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 2010
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Any updates? I just picked up a 2.5 block from an 97 outback wagon and I have 92 2.2 heads to go on it. How did you calculate your quench area when determining the effective compression ratio?
Paul
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7300
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Presslab! That's totally helpful. I got a piece of really thick glass from the "Re-source" building materials recycling place in town, and did exactly what the USMB thread above describes.
It worked pretty well, but the problem is the 2.2 heads I have have a few subtle spots that almost seem to be corroded...I sand and sand and sand, but I'm just not getting to the bottom of these spots! (they're kind of hard to see in the photo-- they are the dark parts in the middle near the water ports...ignore the wet marks from WD40 above the combustion chambers...I just hose down the valve guides with it after rinsing off the head to prevent rust after cleaning off the sanding slurry...)
It almost seems like the 2.2 composite gasket has attacked the 2.2 head. Luckily, they're all outboard of the cylinder rings on the head gaskets. I'm not sure if I should run them as-is, or blatantly ignore r39o's advice and get the heads milled slightly...I don't think I'll try sanding for another 30 minutes/head.
| Franklinstower wrote: |
| How did you calculate your quench area when determining the effective compression ratio? |
I just used the compression ratio calculator here: http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html
I used a dial caliper to measure how high the piston peeks up above the deck. I used a sheet of plexiglass with a couple of holes drilled in it and sealed against the piston or head surfaces with grease and an oral hypodermic to measure the volume of the combustion chamber and piston dish (I posted a photo earlier on this thread). I never had to explicitly calculate quench area. I plugged head gasket thicknesses into the calculator above until I found a CR that I liked and ordered custom hybrid head gaskets from Dometic.
In other updates, I have the valves all apart, and the parts all clean -- I ran the case halves through the dishwasher, and then immediately hosed the cylinder bores down with WD40 to prevent surface rust. I have the pistons all cleaned up, and I got a bunch of brand new parts in the mail! It's time to start putting the bottom end together! I bought some Plastigauge today, but I haven't had a chance to start measuring bearing clearances yet.
I'll post up some more pics when I make more progress. |
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 2010
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Velo dude;
i was reading in your thread you didn't know the history of your engine, the vin should be posted on the side of the block...I just found mine:
4S3BG6856W7655075
The OBW I got it from was a 1997 but had a date stamp of 10/1996 so this doesn't make sense because the 'W' indicates a 1998 MY. (vin on the block)
I would sure like to run a carfax on that vin and it may reveal more info....I don't have a carfax account though currently, so anyone wanting to run that for me, send me a pmail! 
All I know is the block is better than the '96 that had the short rods and ran premium.
Oh one more thing. I saw a 95 imprezza at the yard when I got my block, but it was not a 2.2 - it was a 1.8, did you verify that those heads you got were on a 2.2 and not a 1.8? The imprezza I saw might have been the sport version though.
Thanks,
Paul
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| Franklinstower wrote: |
| I would sure like to run a carfax on that vin and it may reveal more info. |
I'd hook you up with a carfax, but I don't have an account either.
That's crazy that they stamp the VIN on the engine! I totally didn't know that! Thanks for the info. I'll have to look for the VIN on my engine and see if I can dig up any other info...looking at the level of sludge in the piston rings, the bald tires on the car, but the totally perfect cylinder bores tells me that my engine's Carfax probably says "Run hard, put up wet, and generally @$%^ed up -- but for less than 150K miles"  .
| Franklinstower wrote: |
| Oh one more thing. I saw a 95 imprezza at the yard when I got my block, but it was not a 2.2 - it was a 1.8, did you verify that those heads you got were on a 2.2 and not a 1.8? |
Yeah...I double checked...it was weird, the yard had 2 identical-looking 1995 2 door Impreza sedans, both the same Subaru-signature blue/green color, right next to each other, one had a 1.8, and the other (mine) had a 2.2 . Definitely something to look out for, though! Thanks for the heads up!
Later,
-Andy |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| veloandy wrote: |
Thanks Presslab! That's totally helpful. I got a piece of really thick glass from the "Re-source" building materials recycling place in town, and did exactly what the USMB thread above describes.
It worked pretty well, but the problem is the 2.2 heads I have have a few subtle spots that almost seem to be corroded...I sand and sand and sand, but I'm just not getting to the bottom of these spots! (they're kind of hard to see in the photo-- they are the dark parts in the middle near the water ports...ignore the wet marks from WD40 above the combustion chambers...I just hose down the valve guides with it after rinsing off the head to prevent rust after cleaning off the sanding slurry...)
It almost seems like the 2.2 composite gasket has attacked the 2.2 head. Luckily, they're all outboard of the cylinder rings on the head gaskets. I'm not sure if I should run them as-is, or blatantly ignore r39o's advice and get the heads milled slightly...I don't think I'll try sanding for another 30 minutes/head. |
The shadows you see between the water holes is corrosion damage.
*** IF *** you can NOT catch your finger nail on area, forget about it!
The old time why to handle this is to spray aluminum paint on and sand a bit as presslab suggests. Or use the newer copper based spray.
I do NOT which, if any, seal enhancements are compatible with your new modern seals. Some have pressure activated sealants embedded as an example.
I just hate to machine these heads due to the problems that can arise.....
The valve seats "look" bad, or are they just dirty from cleaning?????
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)
Last edited by r39o on Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12175
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: |
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I've used the copper gasket spray, and lots of guys swear that Hylomar smeared lightly on either side of the HG is the way to go with used aluminum heads.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH
'01 Weekender --> full camper
NEAT, no ICE. |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I've used the copper gasket spray, and lots of guys swear that Hylomar smeared lightly on either side of the HG is the way to go with used aluminum heads. |
Heck, I have filled smooth cracked blocks on VW I4s, smeared sealant on the crack and bolted the head on.
Years later, still fine.....
The water areas just need to be sealed......
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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presslab
Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2008
Posts: 1730
Location: Sonoma County
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I assume you're going to use a MLS gasket. It has special sealant on it as new; I wouldn't add anything else. It also has ridges in it that get crushed - these will take out any spots that aren't perfectly flat. Try to clean that area with acetone to get all the old gasket material off.
If you look at where the possible leak will be, it will only leak coolant between the ports. I would not worry about it.
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1986 Vanagon Westfalia EJ25
1988 Subaru GL-10 EJ20G --- 2000 Honda XR650L
2010 Titus El Guapo --- 2011 On-One 456 Ti |
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the advice everyone...
| r39o wrote: |
| The valve seats "look" bad, or are they just dirty from cleaning????? |
Just totally filthy...covered in carbon, sludge, and filth like every other part of this engine...I wiped them down with an old T-shirt covered in WD40 and they shined right up!
| presslab wrote: |
| I assume you're going to use a MLS gasket. It has special sealant on it as new; I wouldn't add anything else. It also has ridges in it that get crushed - these will take out any spots that aren't perfectly flat. Try to clean that area with acetone to get all the old gasket material off. |
Yeah...I'm going to use Cometic custom hybrid .075" MLS gaskets and install them dry. I don't know what the heck that discoloration on the heads is made out of, but it's effing impervious to acetone, lacquer thinner, carb cleaner, brake cleaner, aircraft remover, water, soap, scrubbing, pinesol, gasoline, and WD40...I think to get it off, I'm going to have to remove the metal under it.
| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I've used the copper gasket spray, and lots of guys swear that Hylomar smeared lightly on either side of the HG is the way to go with used aluminum heads. |
Cometic is pretty adamant about installing their gaskets dry...so I don't think I'll spray them with anything for the first install. Racers all over the place claim Cometic MLS gaskets can be reused...I'd totally consider using the copper gasket spray if I later pull and reinstall the heads.
I've had good luck in the past not being anal about getting head surfaces 100% perfect or 100% clean. I've put heads with surfaces that were way dirtier than these on to a GTI engine, multiple Nissan frankenmotors destined for 510s, a Datsun Roadster, and a Toyota Celica and run them for tens of thousands of miles and never dealt with a blown head gasket.
Honestly, if this head was going on an engine that wasn't as infamous for blown head gaskets as an EJ25, I would have just run them...*BUT* the Subaru engines have such a bad HG rep...
So, I dropped the heads off at AMS Machine here in Fort Collins today to be resurfaced. I've noted your warning, r39o...and thanks...but it seems like the right thing to do. If they trash the heads, then you can tell me "I told you so" . I trust the main guy at AMS and love dealing with him. He's always totally friendly, has always gone the extra mile to do excellent work when I've brought stuff there in the past, and is the epitome of no BS. They resurface Subaru heads there all the time. I consider it $70 ($35/head) well spent.
In other news, I swung by Rocky Mountain Westy today and bought my engine adapter/flyweel! Mike and Joe took great care of me and are awesome guys...I love going down to that place and just shooting the breeze. Thanks guys! |
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Made some progress this weekend, and I have a question for you Subaru gurus out there...
Progress: I got new rod & main bearings installed, clearances checked w/Platigauge, new piston rings installed, case together and sealed, pistons back on rods, clean resurfaced heads reassembled with new valve stem seals and bolted on, and everything put on an engine stand. It's starting to look more like a motor than a filthy mountain of spare parts!
Question:I went through all the connections on the top of the engine, but I'm not sure about these three:
1. Water line off of the coolant manifold
2. Vacuum line(?) running off of the auxiliary air regulator and under the throttle body
3. Vacuum line off of #4 intake runner
Can any of you tell me definitively what these should go to? (Yeah, yeah...I should have taken pictures or paid more attention during my dehydrated daze at the junkyard as I was ripping out the manifold...)
If I don't hear any response, I'm thinking I'll cap #1, and run #2 and #3 together...but I'd like to know for sure.
(and...yes...I'm planning on replacing all the vacuum hoses on the intake manifold and installing an aftermarket temperature gauge sender in the coolant manifold before I finally install them).
Thanks!
-Andy |
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Franklinstower
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Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 2010
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure 1 & 2 are coolant, heating for the Throttle Body and IAC -
#3 is the vacuum for the brake booster. I moved the break boosters nipple to the otherside, and plugged that port. Use the subie brake vacuum rubber hose, it has a check valve inside the hose and fits perfectly onto the Vanagon plastic vacuum line.
_________________
'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug
YITB
Last edited by Franklinstower on Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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syncrodoka
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Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12406
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:23 am Post subject: |
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| Franklinstower wrote: |
I'm pretty sure 1&2 are coolant, heating for the intake and iac,
#3 is the vacuum for the brake booster. I moved the break boosters nipple to the otherside, and plugged that port. Use the subie brake vacuum Robert hose, it has a check valve in side the hose and fits perfectly onto the Vanagon plastic vacuum line. |
Correct, 1 connects to 2 and 3 gets plugged into the brake booster line. There is a square headed plug on the opposite side of the engine that the #3 will swap with. |
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veloandy
Samba Member
Joined: December 04, 2010
Posts: 363
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Franklinstower wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure 1&2 are coolant, heating for the intake and iac, |
| syncrodoka wrote: |
| Correct, 1 connects to 2 and 3 gets plugged into the brake booster line. There is a square headed plug on the opposite side of the engine that the #3 will swap with. |
Syncrodoka & Franklinstower, you guys are awesome! Thanks!
The last think I wanted to do was plumb coolant into the vacuum system  !
Thanks again!
-Andy |
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 2010
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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any updates?
i am ordering my hg tomorrow from cometic. .056" thick. waiting on my heads now.
Paul
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug
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