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MRshotglass
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2006
Posts: 185
Location: OKC
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 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: Wierd starter problem |
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I just got the starter rebuilt for my 2.0, and it turned fine the first time I tried it, but after it sits overnight or for a few hours, it doesn't do anything. I got down and touched the starter leads together and it spun up, and then it started again. So basically to fix it, I have to arc the starter then it works again for awhile before stopping. I have a hot start relay, if that makes any difference. Battery cables/connectors are good, and there is a full charge. Any ideas?
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-Wes
71 Super Beetle - "Squirt" |
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75bus4/me
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2011
Posts: 414
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Ignition switch?
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1975 Bay Window {Big Red} |
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rustbus
Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2009
Posts: 2078
Location: alberta
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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not that this helps, but i had purchased a Bosch rebuilt starter from the flaps, best quality they offered.
say 10-20 starts later, it started behaving as yours does, either i would have to wait or drag my ass under there and either short the starter then it would turn or even have someone on the ignition switch while i tapped it with a hammer.
brand new starter.. i had it replaced under warranty, this new one sounds better and hasn't messed up yet.
different solenoid design between the first and second one. i didnt know there was a different type of solenoid until i got the second one.
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May of '72 Deluxe.  2.0L L-Jet CS & 091 trans conversion
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75bus4/me
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2011
Posts: 414
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| rustbus wrote: |
not that this helps, but i had purchased a Bosch rebuilt starter from the flaps, best quality they offered.
say 10-20 starts later, it started behaving as yours does, either i would have to wait or drag my ass under there and either short the starter then it would turn or even have someone on the ignition switch while i tapped it with a hammer.
brand new starter.. i had it replaced under warranty, this new one sounds better and hasn't messed up yet.
different solenoid design between the first and second one. i didnt know there was a different type of solenoid until i got the second one. |
Agree. I went through 2 new fuel pumps in 5 months. Switched brands and no problems.
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MRshotglass
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2006
Posts: 185
Location: OKC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Crap...well that news isn't very good. This was the Bosch that came out of the bus, and I dropped $120 to have it rebuilt at a quality local builder. I guess I may have to take it back to have it checked out. What exactly is causing the problem?
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-Wes
71 Super Beetle - "Squirt" |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| MRshotglass wrote: |
| What exactly is causing the problem? |
That would be up to the builder to determine, thick grease in the solenoid could be part of the issue as well as the bushing in the transmission (you changed that, right?).
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: Starter Testing FAQ |
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This is the very last time I am going to post on how to test a starter. It is by far the simplest part of the bus next to putting air in the tires so if someone can't handle it then they should hang it up with VW buses.
The battery has to have 12V between the terminal. If a cell is bad or a post bad that will cause symptoms like you describe. You get out your volt meter and measure between the battery posts.
The battery terminal connectors and ground straps have to be good. A bad connection will cause that behavior too.
Disconnect the points at the green distributor wire. Same for an electronic ignition if you have one. Turn on your headlights and measure the voltage at the battery again. It should still be 12V. Measure it between the car body and the negative post. It should be almost zero. If it is more than a fraction of a volt you need to clean your ground connections. Do the same test from the engine. It should be almost zero. If it is more than a fraction of a volt then check you engine ground strap.
Check your battery voltage at the 12V post again and verify what it is. Crawl under the bus and check it at the post where the big heavy wire from the battery is. It should be about the same.
With the bus in neutral and the wheels chocked with the brake on so you don't get run over, have a friend turn the key to the start position. The voltage at the spade lug should be close to 12V. If not you may have a bad ignition switch and if you have an automatic the neutral switch may be bad. If you don't have close to 12V the solenoid won't pull in and the car won't start. You can jump like the path in the green arrows in the photo shows and the starter should spin. You should be able to jump between the white arrows and the starter should crank the engine. If the key is on the bus will start so make sure it is in neutral.
As for BusDaddy's comment about the bushing in the bell housing. If it is bad the armature will rub and the starter will bind. The teeth may not engage. Always change it when you are replacing or rebuilding a starter.
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Busdriver79
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2011
Posts: 1655
Location: The Peoples' Republic of "No" Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
This is the very last time I am going to post on how to test a starter. It is by far the simplest part of the bus next to putting air in the tires so if someone can't handle it then they should hang it up with VW buses.
The battery has to have 12V between the terminal. If a cell is bad or a post bad that will cause symptoms like you describe. You get out your volt meter and measure between the battery posts.
The battery terminal connectors and ground straps have to be good. A bad connection will cause that behavior too.
Disconnect the points at the green distributor wire. Same for an electronic ignition if you have one. Turn on your headlights and measure the voltage at the battery again. It should still be 12V. Measure it between the car body and the negative post. It should be almost zero. If it is more than a fraction of a volt you need to clean your ground connections. Do the same test from the engine. It should be almost zero. If it is more than a fraction of a volt then check you engine ground strap.
Check your battery voltage at the 12V post again and verify what it is. Crawl under the bus and check it at the post where the big heavy wire from the battery is. It should be about the same.
With the bus in neutral and the wheels chocked with the brake on so you don't get run over, have a friend turn the key to the start position. The voltage at the spade lug should be close to 12V. If not you may have a bad ignition switch and if you have an automatic the neutral switch may be bad. If you don't have close to 12V the solenoid won't pull in and the car won't start. You can jump like the path in the green arrows in the photo shows and the starter should spin. You should be able to jump between the white arrows and the starter should crank the engine. If the key is on the bus will start so make sure it is in neutral.
As for BusDaddy's comment about the bushing in the bell housing. If it is bad the armature will rub and the starter will bind. The teeth may not engage. Always change it when you are replacing or rebuilding a starter.
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....My! My!...aren't we testy today ! His Majesty has spoken! |
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Desertbusman
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Busdriver79 wrote: |
| [..My! My!...aren't we testy today ! |
I'm sure he's pretty tired of explaining this all the time. Starting problems hit here a couple times a week. And maybe surprisingly he is one of the few that very well explains how to do it. Many others give bogus replies and help that hurts more than helps 
Now if people would open their nasty green service manual  and go to the Starter System Troubleshooting chart they would find the same info. It should be unnecessary to let people know that they need a good battery and battery cables with good clean connections.
And then the other option is just Samba search for "start" or "starter" and it's all been covered over and over again. If Steve quits posting his good info over and over again then people might be forced to Search.
Now I know that "Use Search" and "refer to the service manual" are greatly hated solutions. But that's life! You did notice that he did continue on with his excellent explanation anyway?
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MRshotglass
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2006
Posts: 185
Location: OKC
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. I do know how to test the starter, hence me stating that I jumped the solenoid leads. Everything is getting the proper voltage. The bushing is new. That's why I was stumped as to why it only starts with the key after I've jumped it.
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71 Super Beetle - "Squirt" |
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EverettB
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Joined: April 11, 2000
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Cool 
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| MRshotglass wrote: |
| That's why I was stumped as to why it only starts with the key after I've jumped it. |
Who knows, maybe just coincidence. I would guess that your solenoid needs to be cleaned and lubed. The rebuilder probably didn't give it a second thought. Just removed it when he started to work on the starter and put it back on when he was finished with the other stuff. The original grease used in the solenoid dries out and causes the plunger to hang up. Regreasing it works well. The one on my 1800 gave me typical hot start problems probably twenty years ago, I don't remember what I relubed it with but I haven't touched it since. My regreasing job has worked longer at this point than the factory job and has probably seen at least as miles as well. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
Thank you SGKent for that post - I added a link to it from the FAQ.
If you want to start a specific thread dedicated to that, please repost it and send me a link and I will update the FAQ. |
Thank you. Your Samba helps so many people. There is no other car forum on the net that has more resources than The Samba.
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Hi shotglass,I would be looking for bad connections, bad ignition switch. Sounds like the starter is working fine when you jump it.
By jumping the starter you are bypassing the red/white wire that runs to fuse S9 from the starter and then jumps over to fuse S4, from S4 red wire goes to terminal 30 on the Ignition switch and from the ignition switch terminal 50 a red/black wire runs back to the starter. Test all the connections. To bypass the ignition switch you can use a jumper wire from S4 to the red/blak wire in connector T8. If it cranks every time you jump from S4 to T8 the ign. switch is going bad. Good Luck Tcash |
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