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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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 Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: input shaft came out, reverse gear went clunk, now what? |
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subject sums it up. I've got a 74 ghia with original gear box. I pulled my engine to check some stuff and for some reason my input shaft pulled out and I heard the reverse gear fall inside. the shaft will screw onto the stud and turn the wheels in 1st-4th but reverse is a no go. what are my options? can I pull the side cover and fix this or do I need to box it up and send it out?
On a related note, this is now a 2276 turbo so I should probably have my transaxle built for it. |
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bowtiebug
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2013
Posts: 902
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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yes you can fix it by the pulling the passenger side , side cover ..
search loose input shaft this is a common problem ..
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| guess I now know the downside to having a single side transaxle. no passenger side cover so I will have to pull the other side out. |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4946
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Pull both flanges, then the only cover, diff will come out. Then reassemble input shaft to main shaft.
Make sure snapring is in perfect condition, install it on the input shaft, after you put the shaft in trans, past the groove(make sure you install it the correct direction,yes it is directional). put 7mm stud into mainshaft(I locktite the threads going into main shaft), Then slide coupler onto input shaft and thread the two together, after they are all the way together back the input shaft by 3-4 splines, then slide coupler all the way foward and install snap ring in its groove. put diff back in with the side cover and you are done(after installing the flanges of course)
Don't forget to add oil!
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4411
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Order the new style joining stud from VW, or you'll just have the same problem again.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4946
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
Order the new style joining stud from VW, or you'll just have the same problem again.
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This is a good part but if the stud is not threaded in the center it is not needed, at least not on the 1000 or so trans I have built, including Mendeolas. Not trying to stir anything, just stating my experience.
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| any reason not to put a drop of loctite on the input shaft threads to keep it centered? |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4411
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:32 am Post subject: |
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The OP's shaft did not unscrew itself, but rather the stud threaded itself forward. This self-threading issue has been documented and discussed fairly recently.
The new style stud is the cure for the OP's problem.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| don't have it all the way out yet, but how much play or wobble should the output shafts have? while taking off the cv's I noticed the output shafts had some play in them. |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20896
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
The OP's shaft did not unscrew itself, but rather the stud threaded itself forward. This self-threading issue has been documented and discussed fairly recently.
The new style stud is the cure for the OP's problem. |
Gears hit the problem spot on..... You either need a new stud with crowned center to prevent it from internal threading or you need a extremely long stud that will bottom out in threaded shaft hole long before it unscrews from "other shaft"...
Locktite is good stuff, but I don't know if it is answer with the amounts of varying inertia applied to the stud inside shaft...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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got it apart. the stud basically threaded itself into one of the shafts. also, very nasty inside! I had changed the gear oil and put 500 miles on this and was amazed how brown the fluid was. I also found the pinion is wearing way to one side on the ring. hope the wear isn't a problem 
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4946
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Your ring and pinion is done, this core is junk and will not be accepted as a "buildable" core, sorry
And the stud thing is nice, but not needed if installed correct. Millions of vw trans out there prove this. Pull the nose cone off, I bet the m/s bearing is pounding into it, allowing the m/s to walk foward and the stud moves( because it has room) and BAM!!! here we are
Make any sense?
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4411
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| .. And the stud thing is nice, but not needed if installed correct. Millions of vw trans out there prove this. .. |
If by this you mean that you reject the possibility of self-threading, you're incorrect. Of the millions, thousands of self-threading issues have occurred under our noses.
The OP has a mainshaft that wasn't "installed incorrectly", but rather has been factory machined deeper than average .. too deep. The possibility exists that the same problem will occur again, if using another old style 7mm joining stud. VW changed the design of this stud for a reason, and the OP has learned this reason first hand.
And no, loctite is not a long term solution for this application. There is actual movement between the two shafts. This is an intended feature of the design, which is especially critical in say, a Bug or Ghia .. which has the engine hanging from the bellhousing (with no rear engine support).
If you were to measure bellhousing sag, you'd see that the input shaft is spinning on a different plane than the mainshaft. In fact, any case that gets bored for a steel re-sleeve needs to first have this case distortion corrected.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4946
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Well you find another good late model core and do as stated. And the bump in the center of the stud is nice but not 100% needed, I have built over 1000 t-1 trans without a single failure of this point. It is a very nice part however............... here comes the debate!
_________________
There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
68 Ghia
67 T-1
65 Notch
02 Mexican beetle
74 Thing
15 Long travel rail
07 Nomad
05 f-250 |
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Dr OnHolliday
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Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1215
Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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| Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
Your ring and pinion is done, this core is junk and will not be accepted as a "buildable" core, sorry....
Make any sense? |
Not so much. People rebuild Ford 9" differentials, old Ford banjo rearends, 12-bolt and 10-bolt GM diffs, etc etc.
But vws are different and are junk if the r&p need replaced...
_________________
1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust |
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juki48
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2007
Posts: 602
Location: Upstate NY
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
Your ring and pinion is done, this core is junk and will not be accepted as a "buildable" core, sorry....
Make any sense? |
Not so much. People rebuild Ford 9" differentials, old Ford banjo rearends, 12-bolt and 10-bolt GM diffs, etc etc.
But vws are different and are junk if the r&p need replaced... |
I get what he is saying. as far as a core goes, they won't accept this as a good core. It could be re-built if the other components are any good but it sounds like there may be other major issues if the main shaft is chucking around.
if you would like to comment please do so on this thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=568717 this is now a bigger issue than just threading the stud back in... |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4411
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:53 am Post subject: |
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[quote="mcmscott"]
| juki48 wrote: |
And the bump in the center of the stud is nice but not 100% needed, I have built over 1000 t-1 trans without a single failure of this point. It is a very nice part however............... here comes the debate! |
Yes, you've previously identified yourself as a parts assembler, scott. Now you just need to accept that there are things you don't yet know about. For the guy who has the issue .. he 99% didn't need that part, right up until the 1% that he did.
_________________
aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20896
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| gears wrote: |
| mcmscott wrote: |
| .. And the stud thing is nice, but not needed if installed correct. Millions of vw trans out there prove this. .. |
If by this you mean that you reject the possibility of self-threading, you're incorrect. Of the millions, thousands of self-threading issues have occurred under our noses.
The OP has a mainshaft that wasn't "installed incorrectly", but rather has been factory machined deeper than average .. too deep. The possibility exists that the same problem will occur again, if using another old style 7mm joining stud. VW changed the design of this stud for a reason, and the OP has learned this reason first hand.
And no, loctite is not a long term solution for this application. There is actual movement between the two shafts. This is an intended feature of the design, which is especially critical in say, a Bug or Ghia .. which has the engine hanging from the bellhousing (with no rear engine support).
If you were to measure bellhousing sag, you'd see that the input shaft is spinning on a different plane than the mainshaft. In fact, any case that gets bored for a steel re-sleeve needs to first have this case distortion corrected. |
Listen to what this man says....
IF you are poor on cash, just put it back together and run it till it totally self destructs.....
Other wise get it rebuilt now....
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 4237
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Pull the nose cone off, I bet the m/s bearing is pounding into it, allowing the m/s to walk foward and the stud moves( because it has room) and BAM!!! here we are
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What would be the cause of this? |
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crap crap crap! so now what do I do with this?