Indicator Switch Problem or Relay?

[aspira]

I've read through lots of posts but still can't solve this.
My 72 Bay won't swap between high and low beam. Stays on low, so it must be a wire connection, fuse, relay or switch issue.

I've changed out the relay for a new one, cleaned up all connections, checked fuses and that power is going to 56 - okay at 12v

I've come to the conclusion therefore that it must be the indicator stalk switch but the bit I'm worried about is when I energise the relay by grounding the S terminal nothing happens. Surely it should switch between high and low and click and this test isolates the switch on the indicator arm right?

Could it be that my new relay is bad.

The new switch is very expensive for a 72 (£130) so I wan't to make sure this is the problem before I proceed. I've considered adding a momentary switch to replace the high and low dipping problem of the indicator stalk but need to isolate the problem first.

Any thoughts...
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[Wasted youth]

Did it used to work, and now it doesn't? Have you tried to power up the high beam filaments skipping the relay?

[aspira]

Yes used to work fine.

Because I couldnt get the original relay to click I assumed that was the problem, so bought a new relay making sure it wasnt one of those Euro something ones that were known to be a bit crap.

Not sure how to power up the high beam filaments and bypass the relay.
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[SGKent]

This is based on wiring diagrams in the technical section.

On some 1972 models with only 4 wires to the relay, power comes in from the light switch on 56 (black and white). Grounding S switches the output from 56a (White) to 56b (Yellow). On this style, if you have power at 56 (black and white) when the light switch is on, and touching S momentarily to ground doesn't cause it to click, it is the relay.

Some 1972 models have a 5 wire system with an additional red wire on 30 which provides power to the relay on that model. You would look for power all the time on 30 (red) and power on 56 (black and white) when the light switch is on. Grounding S would trigger the relay.

If grounding S on either triggers the relay but the stalk switch does not, then you would also want to check the ground wires under the dash as the stalk gets its ground from there.
_________________
Canned Water - the new California approved parts cleaner (except in a drought in which case rub it with sand).

George Carlin:
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it."

Skills@EuroCarsPlus:
"never time to do it right but always time to do it twice"

1971 deluxe (sold)
1977 deluxe

[aspira]

Thats my point. Grounding S should trigger the relay but it doesn't so I changed the relay and it still doesn't. Have I picked up a new duff relay or am I missing something obvious?
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[SGKent]

[aspira]

There's 4 wires going to the relay;
S from the stalk switch
56 from the headlight switch
56a to the high beam fuse
56b to the low beam fuse

There's 12v at 56 with the lights turned on
There's 12v at 56b with the light turned on and yes the light work

I can't get the stalk switch to affect the dimmer relay but indicators work just fine.

I thought I could isolate the stalk switch by grounding S to test the relay. On my original relay nothing happened so assumed the relay was broken. Replaced it.

Now I've got the same problem with the new relay?
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[SGKent]

[aspira]

Yes pin 30 doesn't have a wire on it at the relay but it never had before and worked fine.

Do you mean take the S wire off the relay, then attach a new wire to S and ground it to see if the relay clicks

as apposed to;

Attaching a new wire to S whilst the existing S wire is still connected and ground it to see if the relay clicks
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[SGKent]

[busdaddy]

The relays with the bonus #30 terminal have to have power to #30 or it won't work.
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[telford dorr]

Tests to try:

1) Pull the relay. Connect 12 volts to terminal 56. Ground terminal 'S'. The relay should click. If it doesn't, the relay is bad.

2) Connect a test light to relay terminal 56a. Ground the other end of the light. As you toggle the relay by grounding terminal 'S', the test light should toggle on, then off.

3) Repeat the above test with the test light on relay terminal 56b. Should do the same as test 2 above, except 56b should be in the opposite state of 56a.

If the above three tests pass, the relay is good.

4) Connect a test light clip to 12 volts. Insert the probe into the relay socket 'S' terminal slot. Lift the turn switch. The test light should illuminate. Let go, and the test light should extinguish.

If the above test passes, the switch is good. If it doesn't toggle as described, the switch is bad, the wiring to it is bad, or the switch ground wire is not grounded properly.

Divide and conquer!
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'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[aspira]

thanks guys.

Ive just pulled the new relay back off the van and tested it with a spare battery on the workbench. So 12v to terminal 56 and grounded S. No click. Tried the old relay (the one I replaced). No click.

Can I assume then that the source of my problem is a faulty relay, both the old one and the replacement?
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[aspira]

Final question before I order another new relay. Busdaddy said that the relay needs 12v at terminal 30 to work. Does this mean testing it on the workbench as suggested by Telford, power to 56 then grounding S to check for a click wont work. Do I need to put 12v to terminals 30 and 56 on the workbench to test it properly?
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[SGKent]

[telford dorr]

Yes. Missed the fact that you have the non-US headlight relay. Sorry about that. Apply 12 volts to both 56 and 30, as SGKent says, and repeat the tests.

In the five terminal relay, the coil is powered by terminal 30 so that any time you ground terminal 'S', terminal 30 will provide power to the high beams. Terminal 56 provides power for normal headlight functions, but not the coil.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)

[aspira]

Okay here's an update and many thanks for all your help everyone. Its now working, #30 is key. You need 12V going to that on the bench or in the car if you want the relay to respond. As suggested in the last two posts when the guys realised mine was a 5 terminal relay.

The problem was caused when I fitted a new oil pressure gauge in the week and dislodged #30 feed from the relay. I was then convinced that only 4 wires were being used and terminal #30 was just a blank.

Thanks again for sticking with this one.
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1972 - LHD - 1641 - Dell 36's - Westy, Crossover - US import

[Vamstad]

I just went through the "need to power #30 to get it to work" fiasco. Confusing when the one you pull out doesn't need or even have power to it but the replacement does. Thank you Samba and Samba community...and BusDaddy! I almost went mad trying to figure that one out on my own.
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Fear is the mind killer.
1979 Federal Westfalia
2.0 FI