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SimiRon
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Simi Valley
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 Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 10:03 pm Post subject: Macpherson Strut Replacement |
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The MacPherson struts on the front suspension on my '71 411 wagon could use replacing, but I'm having difficulty finding replacement struts. Does anyone have a source for these parts? Will the struts from a Super Beetle fit the 411?
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'64 Deluxe Bug
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oasis
Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2002
Posts: 2193
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Click here to get you started. If you don't want the nose-up stance while running empty, it will require a little customizing -- beyond my very limited abilities but simple enough many can do it and I wouldn't be hesitant to seek out someone with the necessary skills.
There are a handful of solutions. I have no experience with any of them but I would lean towards Ray's solution from those I have read. It seems somewhat simple and he has experimented a lot. A search here and at ShopTalkForums will reveal a ton of info.
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Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| oasis wrote: |
Click here to get you started. If you don't want the nose-up stance while running empty, it will require a little customizing -- beyond my very limited abilities but simple enough many can do it and I wouldn't be hesitant to seek out someone with the necessary skills.
There are a handful of solutions. I have no experience with any of them but I would lean towards Ray's solution from those I have read. It seems somewhat simple and he has experimented a lot. A search here and at ShopTalkForums will reveal a ton of info. |
Thank you for the plug for my abilities 
This mod is really, simple. But...as I have noted several times in the past.....its a specific combination using a known part # and brand of cartridge that has the correct valving to prevent any damage to suspension parts and is a definite upgrade in handling and stance for the car.
The issues from past post about 5-6 years ago is that while we were discussing this over on the STF forums....my car was 1500 miles away in storage. There were some small details that I missed.
To get the exact level drop for the front end as well as making it easy and being able to use the original bump stops (if yours are still in good shape with no splits) along with a cheap readily available strut boot (its from a specific golf so its easy to get).....you need to follow the details of the combination.
Within this work.....there is a point where you will need to adjust the length of the steel bushing inside of the bump stop. This point is one of several small adjustment points that cumulatively gives you the opportunity to either keep the original nose high attitude....which I dont recommend because it gives the car such poor active castor that it is the cause of wandering high cross winds......
or you can bring the car dead level.....or drop it up to about 1" max in the front end.
The key here is to have the strut cartridge adapter stud made for you. I have both acchrate line drawing and CAD file....made for me by another gracious owner.
These are simple to machine and typically cost about $75-120 for the pair at a machine shop.
You will need to either get new strut bushings....because I will guarantee you that original bonded 411 bushings have cracks and are shot. I can tell you how to inspect for this...because the, cracks in the rubber bonding cannot be, readily seen....until they fail while driving.....and that is ugly. The original 411 bushing was actually defective in this way and is why they changed the design in the late 412 and superbeetle.
Or....you can do some body mods and install the late 412 bushing. Not difficult....just a little careful work.
I took about 500-600 pictures of the whole process from start to finish. It will be a few weeks before I can get it all, sorted into a document.
Ray |
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SimiRon
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Simi Valley
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you both for the quick replies. Samba is the best resource for VW out there.
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'78 ASI Riviera Camper
'64 Deluxe Bug
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Basic conversion to Audi strut cartridges is infact a really simple job to do.
I have done the following to my 1972 411:
1) If you have still have the original struts with built in shock absorbers (not cartridges) save the insides.
2) Cut the original threaded strut pin so that it has enough length to make an inner thread for the new audi cartridge. (Has to be done in a lathe) This is going to be a top adapter for the new cartridge.
3) Cut also the centering collar from the original strut.
4) Slide the centering collar on to the Audi cartrides pin.
5) Measure the length of the Audi cartridge and collar assembly and compare the measurements with the inner length of the strut.
6) Cut a piece of a metal pipe for both the top and bottom of the new cartridge assembly so that it sits in the middle inside the strut.
7) Screw the threaded pin to the Audi cartride and secure it with Loctite.
8) Strut is now ready for assembly.
9) Get new strut bearing bushings ment for the early Super Beetle. They have the same bearings as all 411 and early 412's had.
10) Drill new holes for the bushings bolts. The Super Beetle bushing is asymmetrical, but it fits in to the 411/411 body perfectly.
11) Put everything back together and you have new strut bearings and better than original shock absorbers which are replaceable!
If your car doesn't have the original struts anymore you can fabricate the top adaters. I have the drawings for the adapter among others in this forum.
Things to do before you start:
- Disassemble and open the original struts
- Buy the Audi cartridges
- Cut the original strut pins and make an inner thread to them so that they fit onto the audi cartridge OR make/order an adapter from a machine shop
- Get some alloy pipe you can cut to length after measuring the new strut insert assembly
- Get the Beetle strut bushings
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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You were able to tap a thread into the original strut rod?
Wow....it must not be induction, hardened like aftermarket strut cartridges. ...which are so hard that its virtually impossible to tap....even on a lathe.
Yes....overall that is the right method. If you can wait a few days until I post the photo details.....there are a handful of small details to be taken care of at the same time that nit only loser the front end slightly more if needed but also make thd strut bushing and cartridge fit better and handle more accurately.
There is lots of unecessary slop in the shims for the strut bushings. Ray |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, i guess we discussed about this in the STf few years earlier. The original strut rods are surprisingly soft material. Ofcourse i was wery careful when i made the threads but there were actually no problems doing it. I turned the lathe by hand as i was afraid the threading tap would snap.
I also slid some bicke inner tube around the Audi cartridge to hold it better in place as the cartridge is slightly narrower in diameter than the 411 strut. I guess next step is i'm going to fabricate more accurate top and bottom spacers from aluminium to hold the cartridge tightly in place.
But on general, i wanted to write how simple it actually is to make the Audi cartridge to fit. It doesn't need that much fabricating and it's a huge improvemet to cars handling and maintenance. I have also fitted bronze bushings and grase fittings to the ball joints but that's another story 
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Lahti411 wrote: |
Yeah, i guess we discussed about this in the STf few years earlier. The original strut rods are surprisingly soft material. Ofcourse i was wery careful when i made the threads but there were actually no problems doing it. I turned the lathe by hand as i was afraid the threading tap would snap.
I also slid some bicke inner tube around the Audi cartridge to hold it better in place as the cartridge is slightly narrower in diameter than the 411 strut. I guess next step is i'm going to fabricate more accurate top and bottom spacers from aluminium to hold the cartridge tightly in place.
But on general, i wanted to write how simple it actually is to make the Audi cartridge to fit. It doesn't need that much fabricating and it's a huge improvemet to cars handling and maintenance. I have also fitted bronze bushings and grase fittings to the ball joints but that's another story |
Yes....you got all of the main details. It is really, simple. The added details I have are exactly wome of those you just listed....little simple details but worth mentioning.....the rubber wrap around the cartridge takes a lot of moment out...better top spacers....and I found some nice small cheap details for working on the strut mount, strut boot and spacers that make very nice differences and can be done nasically for free. Ray |
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SimiRon
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Simi Valley
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Doesn't sound that simple. Maybe pictures will help. I've never worked on strut suspensions before owning this car. Thanks for all the advice.
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reluctantartist
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:48 am Post subject: |
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All of the strut postings really should be collected together and maybe made a sticky since this is a a very common issue to be addressed on these cars. Ray or someone do you have a cad drawing for the adaptor stub that would allow one to go to a machine shop and have it made? I just want to replace the cartridges on a 1974 412 variant (last of the 1974's so I have the differnet set upthan is usually discussed). I am not concerned with lowering so much since I am usually haulling feed in the trunk. WHen my car has a few bags of feed in it seems to hug the road. I looked at the new bilstiens but it would be over 1000 dollars for the front. With the audi 4000 strut I just basically need an adaptor to lengthen the rod and 2 spacers in the strut housing to lengthen the body as previously mentioned for the older struts? Do I need to do all the other strut bearing modifications? Most of the info I keep finding is for the earlier 411-412 setups.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| reluctantartist wrote: |
| All of the strut postings really should be collected together and maybe made a sticky since this is a a very common issue to be addressed on these cars. Ray or someone do you have a cad drawing for the adaptor stub that would allow one to go to a machine shop and have it made? I just want to replace the cartridges on a 1974 412 variant (last of the 1974's so I have the differnet set upthan is usually discussed). I am not concerned with lowering so much since I am usually haulling feed in the trunk. WHen my car has a few bags of feed in it seems to hug the road. I looked at the new bilstiens but it would be over 1000 dollars for the front. With the audi 4000 strut I just basically need an adaptor to lengthen the rod and 2 spacers in the strut housing to lengthen the body as previously mentioned for the older struts? Do I need to do all the other strut bearing modifications? Most of the info I keep finding is for the earlier 411-412 setups. |
No actually this is for all of the 411/412 struts. The stub adapter is slightly different but that is actually taken care of with the earlier models with moving the bump stop spacer around.
When you are done....and you compare the strut cartridge mod for earlier cars with the strut, cartridge mod for a late model 412...they look virtually identical. And...that is also because we mostly end up moving to the 1974 strut bushing/bearing which is much better.
Lowering will be done with this set up whether you want it or not. Yes....you can spacer it and leave it nose high. ....but why you would want that I have no idea.
Yes....loading the trunk...levels the car. That was the whole factory point. A huge trunk with stiff progressive springs to handle a loaded trunk.
It was also the factory flaw.....of once its level....the valving was so incorrect that driving ut with the trunk heavioy loaded all the time to keep it level....literally destroys suspension, components.
And....driving it nose high is flat out dangerous and gives horrible tire adhesion and tram lining at highway speeds.
With the valving in the audi struts and the geometry of the stub.....the car is levelled....and now when you load the trunk with feed bags.....it stays at that same level.
Yes.... I have CAD drawing for the stub.
Also....as I warned. ....the infromation in the old threads was incomplete jn small details because I di not have the car, close to me at the time to, verify all details of what I had done.
Several people installed this mod with not enough detail information and ran into small problems....easily solved problems.....but it was a ton of frustrating back and forth for these people and at least one with hood damage because they got in a hurry.
So....again....I am putting all of the measurements pictures into one complete document. I am verifying that I am missing no details....by reassembling two complete sets of struts...early and late over the the next week.....between work and holidays..... so bear with me.
Ray |
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 18041
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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You have been promising to post 411/412 pics etc for years, but never have posted Anything even if incomplete/subject to update! 
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You have been promising to post 411/412 pics etc for years, but never have posted Anything even if incomplete/subject to update! |
Yes...and if you become an asshole about it I can easily post nothing. Its nk skin off my nose. My car has the mods.
Work and life comes first and its been busy. Im trying to put the hundreds of pictures....that i spent hundreds of hours lighting, staging and taking....supporting dozens of details and several mods to cover all years.....at considerable cost i might add......into a single, coherent document that answers all the questions.....so when the inevitable questions come.....they will be A. Fewer and B. More easily answered because ALL of the details will be public and on file.
The struts are just one segment of the THOUSANDS of pictures I have taken rega4ring a complete front end rebuild for both stock and all of the mods from ball joints, tie rod ends....to steering box rebuild, castor adjustment mod and idler arm.....along with removal install of all of it.
Just because you need one segment right now.....does not mean that, that is the current segment im working on.
so with what limited time I have....I stop what im working on.....to get this out.
See my point?
Ray |
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reluctantartist
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 1929
Location: Bloomington, IN
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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I think most of us are already indebted to you. We will patiently wait.
Thanks for all the help you have given so far.
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1982 Westy, 1974 412 Variant... Yes, Aircooled's are great! Oh and I do have modern computer controlled vehicles too, but I just don't care about them. |
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hulken
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| reluctantartist wrote: |
I think most of us are already indebted to you. We will patiently wait.
Thanks for all the help you have given so far. |
x2 |
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tim3
Samba Member
Joined: February 01, 2004
Posts: 558
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2024 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: Macpherson Strut Replacement |
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promised photos have gone with the wind.. 10 years and counting
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 27, 2024 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Macpherson Strut Replacement |
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| tim3 wrote: |
| promised photos have gone with the wind.. 10 years and counting |
Hey...idiot....this is a 2014 thread.
The posts and photos this thread was speaking of....were posted years ago:
April 12th 2015 for the 1968 to 1972 version
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=624354&highlight=
That is a 113 page document with more pictures and diagrams than you can probably count to.... 
and....for the 1974-75 version they were posted February 3rd, 2022 as an update
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764509
Again....about a 100 page document.
You are welcome!
Ray |
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