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vwbugmeister
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Joined: January 04, 2015
Posts: 13
Location: Paducah, KY
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 Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: 1973 Super Beetle - Trouble starting/accelerating |
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Here's the scenario:
I have a 1973 Super Beetle with AC and an internally regulated alternator.
When I bought it, it had a 009 distributor with the Ignitor I points replacement device installed and the Solex 34 PICT 3 carb looked awful. The throttle arm had 2 rusty, worn out springs attached from it to the carb body, and the engine would only either idle high or not at all.
So I got a a new Bocar 34 PICT 3 (the super stock version) and a Pertronix Flamethrower III SVDA distributor (with rev limiter and Ignitor III) from aircooled.net.
Here are the exact products:
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Super-Stock-34-PICT-3-34-3-Carburetor-12V-Bocar-p/super-stock-34-3.htm
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Pertronix-III-SVDA-Distributor-D7182504-p/d7182504.htm
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Side Note:
I also recently replaced the ignition switch, which had gone bad. My wife (from the passenger seat) had to hold the key all the way to the right one rainy day to keep the car running long enough for me to drive us another 5 minutes to the house.
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The new Bocar carburetor came with the accelerator pump linkage setup for a generator, rather than an alternator, but it's not hitting the side of the alternator (so does that matter?).
I installed the carburetor easily enough, but installation of the new distributor was a pain in the butt because the AC compressor is in the way and the #3 wire is jammed against it.
I installed the distributor, following the directions emailed to me from aircooled.net (I even looked at the valves while rocking the pulley to be sure I was at TDC for #1). The body of the 009 distributor was actually installed 180 off, so the mark pointed to #3. (Doesn't matter though, because I matched the wires on the new distributor according the the rotor position at #1 TDC, and the engine doesn't backfire when I try to start it, so I know it's not 180 off).
With everything installed and the wiring and vacuum tubes hooked up correctly, the engine should start, but I'm having a real hard time getting it to do so.
Here's the problem:
I try to start the car and the engine turns over, but will not start. I tried pumping the accelerator pedal, but it still wouldn't start.
The only way I can finally get it to start is by holding the accelerator pedal to the floor and cranking the engine for 20-30 seconds. The engine almost sounds like it's ramping up and finally starts. I can let go of the key and it will continue to run with the RPMs rising very very slowly.
Once the RPMs start sounding like it should when it reaches idle speed, I can back off of the accelerator pedal a little at a time (as the RPMs start getting higher and higher), but I can't let my foot off the pedal until the engine is warm and the choke butterfly is fully open, or the engine will immediately die.
Regardless of whether the engine is warm or not, if I turn off the engine or it dies, I have to go through the exact same procedure to get it started again.
One the engine is warmed up and I can take my foot off of the accelerator pedal, it will idle smoothly at 900 RPM. Regardless of any adjustments I make to the fuel bypass screw or the idle air screw, aside from turning them both completely in, the engine will continue to idle at 900 RPM.
I decided to take the car for a test drive, and noticed something else.
From 1st gear, I have to press the accelerator pedal to rev up the RPMs higher than normal, then let off the clutch or the engine will die.
Once I'm driving, the car accelerates very slowly before the RPMs increase enough to shift to 2nd gear. The the RPMs drop and the vehicle accelerates very very slowly until the RPMs increase enough to shift to 3rd gear, etc.
When I say it accelerates very slowly, I mean it's so slow that I dare not drive it for fear of being hit by a car. The hesitation is so severe, that the only way I would drive it, is if there is absolutely no other vehicles on the road.
Some Things I've checked:
1. There are no resistance wires (I'm getting the full 12v from the coil to the distributor).
2. I'm getting good spark at each plug.
3. The wires from the distributor are correctly connected to the coil.
4. The autochoke is getting power to it.
5. The fuel cutoff solenoid is also getting power.
6. The Ignitor III rev limiter is set at 5500 RPM.
7. The float bowl is primed.
8. The accelerator pump injector sprays a stream of fuel to the throttle plate (dead center, without hitting anything else and splashing).
9. The valves are set at .006
10. There are no air leaks that I can find anywhere in the engine compartment.
11. There is suction when I place my hand over the carb, and doing so, kills the engine.
So, now I'm at a complete loss of where to go from here. Anyone have any ideas, or experience with these same symptoms?
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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green1303
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Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Could you check your fuel flow to the carburetor and post some pictures of your configuration? It's hard to know what may be wrong without seeing it.
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1973 green Super Beetle |
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vwbugmeister
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Joined: January 04, 2015
Posts: 13
Location: Paducah, KY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: |
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When you say to check the fuel flow, do you mean make sure the fuel is flowing to the carb, or are you saying to check the fuel pressure to the carb?
For the pressure, I'm going to have to get a fuel pressure tester, then I'll post the results here.
In the mean time, here are some pictures: (I do have a carb filter that isn't in the pictures)
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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green1303
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Location: Alexandria, VA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:43 am Post subject: |
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I mean check to ensure that the fuel line is not clogged somewhere.
Edit: At first I didn't see the vacuum line connecting the distributor to the side of the carburetor, because it's coiled up around a bar.
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1973 green Super Beetle
Last edited by green1303 on Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:59 am; edited 2 times in total |
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vwbugmeister
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Joined: January 04, 2015
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Location: Paducah, KY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:45 am Post subject: |
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An additional note:
The belt looks like it needs replacing.
With the engine running, it turns the alternator, but I can see quite a bit of flex in it, and when I try to turn the pulley with a wrench, the belt won't move. I actually have to turn it by grabbing the belt with my hands.
But could that also be because of the additional attached belt for the AC compressor? The only way to know is to get a new belt, I think.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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vwbugmeister
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Location: Paducah, KY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:47 am Post subject: |
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The vacuum line is connected from the distributor to the carb.
But I've tried it both ways.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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vwbugmeister
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Joined: January 04, 2015
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Location: Paducah, KY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:48 am Post subject: |
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The fuel line isn't clogged.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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volkswagen_bug
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Joined: November 04, 2008
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Location: Sumter, SC
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Is it possible your vac. line from your dist. to your carb. is to long?
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vwbugmeister
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:00 am Post subject: |
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I've thought about the vac line being too long.
Would that really cause these problems?
The distributor instructions emailed to me from aircooled.net included the following:
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| Since the carbs sit higher than the distributor, it is a good idea to put a small 2" loop in the vacuum line, which prevents fuel from traveling down the hose from the carb, and into the vacuum diaphragm on the distributor, which can cause failure of the vacuum diaphragm. This is not something you absolutely have to do, but the cost of the extra length of hose is minimal, and again, is cheap insurance. |
This is the reason I have the extra length of vacuum hose.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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volkswagen_bug
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: |
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It's possible I'd try to have a setup like this.
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Did I miss the part where you actually timed it? |
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vwbugmeister
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:16 am Post subject: |
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I'll shorten the vacuum line and see what happens. Then report back.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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vwbugmeister
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| Did I miss the part where you actually timed it? |
I timed it. That was included in the directions from aircooled.net (so I didn't list it specifically in my post).
I timed it statically (initially), then I timed it with a timing light. I didn't time the advance though, because I hadn't figured out the issue with how hard it starts yet, and that shouldn't affect starting the vehicle.
Timing it statically was a pain, because the AC compressor is in the way, and I couldn't turn the distributor body far enough for the light to go off, because the vacuum canister hits the AC compressor mount.
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1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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I assume that you know what the marking on the pulley means.
I also assume that aircooled.net had you time it to 30º +/- 2º BTDC when all of the centrifical advance is all in and with no vacuum hoses attached.
Did you disassmble the carb and clean it all out before you installed it?
Is the idle jet clean and not too tight?
Not using platinum plugs are you?
Just trying to figure out what might help here. |
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beetlenut
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Joined: May 27, 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| vwbugmeister wrote: |
I've thought about the vac line being too long.
Would that really cause these problems?
The distributor instructions emailed to me from aircooled.net included the following:
| Quote: |
| Since the carbs sit higher than the distributor, it is a good idea to put a small 2" loop in the vacuum line, which prevents fuel from traveling down the hose from the carb, and into the vacuum diaphragm on the distributor, which can cause failure of the vacuum diaphragm. This is not something you absolutely have to do, but the cost of the extra length of hose is minimal, and again, is cheap insurance. |
This is the reason I have the extra length of vacuum hose. |
The thing about the loop or bend in the vacuum line, known as a Shepard's hook, is that the loop part is above the vacuum port on the carb. That way fuel that gets into the line will gravity feed back in to the carb, and not flow down into the vacuum can. As yours sits now, fuel could still get into the vacuum can.
Do you have a fuel filter in the system somewhere? I thought fuel flowed through a different passage in the carb when the choke is on verses when it is off? I may be wrong on that though.
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scrapyards are for quitters
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| Wetstuff wrote: |
| ... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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vwbugmeister
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Joined: January 04, 2015
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Location: Paducah, KY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| I assume that you know what the marking on the pulley means. |
My pulley has a dimple for TDC and a single notch to the right of it that marks 7.5" BTDC.
I verified I was at TDC for #1 by actually opening the right valve cover (while facing the back of the vehicle), and watching the valve movements as I rocked the pulley.
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| I also assume that aircooled.net had you time it to 30º +/- 2º BTDC when all of the centrifical advance is all in and with no vacuum hoses attached. |
Yes it did, but the timing of the advance shouldn't affect starting the engine.
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Did you disassmble the carb and clean it all out before you installed it?
Is the idle jet clean and not too tight? |
I did make sure it was cleaned before installation.
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| Not using platinum plugs are you? |
No platinum plugs.
_________________
1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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vwbugmeister
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Location: Paducah, KY
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| beetlenut wrote: |
| Do you have a fuel filter in the system somewhere? I thought fuel flowed through a different passage in the carb when the choke is on verses when it is off? I may be wrong on that though. |
If you look at the 4th picture I posted, you'll see an inline fuel filter on the left side of the engine compartment. The hose goes from here to the fuel pump.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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[img]https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/262754.jpg[/img
I assume that the top pulley i sthe one that you have.
Time the engine using a real timing light please. 30º +/- 2º when all fo the centrifical advance is all in (that should be somewhere around 3500 RPMs or so) with the vacuum hose off.
E-mail John at aircooled to confirm if you wish.
Do you still have the original Solex 34 PIT 3 carb that came with this thing? |
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vwbugmeister
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
I assume that the top pulley i sthe one that you have.
Time the engine using a real timing light please. 30º +/- 2º when all fo the centrifical advance is all in (that should be somewhere around 3500 RPMs or so) with the vacuum hose off.
E-mail John at aircooled to confirm if you wish.
Do you still have the original Solex 34 PIT 3 carb that came with this thing? |
Yes, the top pulley is the one I have.
I timed the engine at idle using a real timing light (7.5 BTDC).
This is directly from John at aircooled:
| Quote: |
| Now it's time to set the timing. Reconnect the negative side of the battery, and turn the key on, but don't crank the engine. With a test light grounded on the engine case, put the other end on the negative terminal on the coil. Very, very slowly, rotate the distributor counter-clockwise, until the test light lights up. The light will stay lit up for a few degrees of the rotation, so it is important to stop turning the distributor body as soon as the light turns on, when rotating counter-clockwise. After this, simply tighten down the distributor clamp, and your engine should start right up. If you have a timing light, get the car started up, aim for 7.5 BTDC at idle FOR NOW, the hose connected or not should not matter (if it does that's the wrong vacuum port). After you set that, reconnect the vacuum line. Depending on where your timing was at idle with your old distributor, you may need to re-set your carb. |
Checking the timing at full advance verifies the SVDA is working properly at both idle and full advance.
Help me understand how this affects getting the engine to start?
I do still have the original solex carb and I've tried comparing it to the new one for any differences. The only major difference I've found is the accelerator pump linkage was setup for alternator on the old one and it's setup for generator on the new one.
However, it's not hitting the alternator, so that shouldn't matter, right? Unless it matters for more than simply keeping it from hitting the alternator. I don't know.
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1973 Super Beetle (Sunroof & AC)
1971 Beetle (Sunroof) <-- Biggest piece of junk, but I loved it! (Sold) |
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Humor me.....
Get rid of some of all of that vacuum hose and just fashon a Shepards Crook by looping a bit of hose higher than the carb on one of ht eair cleaner clamps. The intent is to not allow liquid gasoline to run down the vac line into the distributor vac can.
Then time it to the 30º +/- 2º when it is all in (vac hose off) and see if that changes anything. Static timing is just to get it started.
Keep in mind a 009 has the wires installed 90º out of correct position.
Did I miss the part where you tested the fuel pressure? Does the accelerator cable actually operate the carb smoothly or is it getting hung up and not getting a full pull? (wife running the gas from inside while you observe the engine in your driveway).
If it were me, I would be sending the factory carb off to Tim at Volksbitz for rebuilding to see if that runs it better. I am not a big fan of those Bocars (sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.)
Also are those heat risers working correctly? |
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