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Urabus build
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dustibus
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Posts: 71
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

MOVING ON, lets talk about BREAKS!!!!( this is going to take a while)

OK, so with a stronger engine you probably need stronger breaks.. At least I do, and I could possibly make some with the knowledge I have and with all the information(internet) I have access to. Also I can make whatever I need with the access to the machines at work!!! Yay!! SOOO, lets start with rear since they are the one that most ppl are probably intrested in..

First take off whats on there and see what kind of mounting holes were working with and find out all the locations of them!!



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Tear off all this....and your left with these holes to mount your brackets on


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So here it is.. You have a choice, you can put ANY 5x112 disc on there with ANY calipers you like... I spent HOURS on this, looked at other disc conversions and was looking at my options... I was going to do some big calipers with some good sized rotors.... All I could find was the calipers with no E-Break and the original E-Break was a drum setup.. Im trying to get away from drums here....this is why im doing all this Rolling Eyes . So I was not going to go that route, It just didnt make sense to me. Thats so confusing and so many parts that are not needed, you might as well keep the drums altogether, it would be a simpler setup... Subaru does this setup and drives me crazy, keep it simple. SO!, after days of research I found some calipers off a newer gti (2010) that only had like 50k miles on them. Well they had a mechanical E-brake on the caliper that squeezed the pads, the same pads that was used for normal breaking... COOL!!! That actually makes sense. Im all about making sense, if something doesnt make sense to me im not about it... Perfect example is the metric system. I use it, I embrace it. It makes sense, why we dont use it I have no idea (too lazy i guess). There is less chance for error and its what almost everything is made/designed from now. Its a better starting point, its what we use a lot of the time and dont even know it.. I could go on for pages about this, so ill drop it now. Laughing .

Anyway!!! So these gti calipers...288mm rear rotor outside diameter, with a 5x112 bolt pattern, and the calipers have the mechanical e-brake on them that I can retro-fit the stock vanagon cables to fit!!! Decided to get these, also the pads you could probably get anywhere same as the rotors Very Happy . OK so i need to make some brackets to make these things work and find out how thick they need to be to get the calipers centered over them. Im running spacers as well which doesnt really matter but ill throw that in there! Here we go Rolling Eyes .

Disc and rotor. The hub doesnt exactly fit inside the rotor so I had to machine some of the OD of the hub down to get to fit( sorry no pics of that)
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Brackets are a 2 piece design I came up with.. Probably would be better/stronger if it was a single piece but this is what I did and its been holding up fine!!

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This just showes the offset and the caliper mounted up
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The bracket mounted up (actually looks like it will work Very Happy ) You can also tell that the hub outside diameter has been turned down and is not as big. Basically the same dia as the spacer which has an angle machined on it to match the angle on the rotor. Its a lot of figuring out because NOTHING is supposed to be here Shocked

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OK so im running 20mm spacers on the rear to kick the wheels out a little...I decided to put the spacers behind the discs... It was easier to make the brackets and also when all put together I would never have to deal with that spacer moving all around and falling off

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OK i really need to go Ill get back with you guys tomorrow. HAPPY NEW YEARS!!
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Sodo
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Joined: July 06, 2007
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Location: Western WA
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

URABUS WV wrote:
I spent HOURS on this, looked at other disc conversions and was looking at my options... I was going to do some big calipers with some good sized rotors.... All I could find was the calipers with no E-Break and the original E-Break was a drum setup.. Im trying to get away from drums here....this is why im doing all this Rolling Eyes So I was not going to go that route, It just didnt make sense to me. Thats so confusing and so many parts that are not needed, you might as well keep the drums altogether, it would be a simpler setup... Subaru does this setup and drives me crazy, keep it simple.


I hate to "brake" it to you bro..... but the reason modern rear discs now have drum parking brakes is because, over time, discs have been found to perform poorly as "parking brakes". Discs perform well in stopping power, but poorly in "holding power" after already stopped. Drum brakes are kinda the other way around - great for low speed (from zero) and not as good from high speed. This is because a drum brake "self energizes" - the rotation of the drum 'draws' the leading shoe into engagement.

Thats why newer vehicles (especially heavier vehicles like trucks) have the combination in the rear. Vanagons can get kinda heavy when used for adventuring, and a good parking brake can be necessary for those who park in hilly areas. Parking brakes are kind of a funny subject. A lot of folks don't even use them, thus couldn't care less about it. For awhile all you could read about on TheSamba was the number of clicks (3). And then there's the automatics, which already have a "park" function. So parking brakes are not an issue for lots of folks.

You are doing a fabulous job though, I'd sure like to see someone with your skillz adapt a drum/disc combo for the Vanagon. Not much hope for that, as the parking drum takes up a lot of space. I have the Audi 200 rear discs from a 2400lb car, and holding power on my 5,000lb van is dismal.

The rear brake you chose (2010 GTI?) may have good holding power, good luck for that!
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Last edited by Sodo on Sat Dec 31, 2016 4:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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vw4life
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Joined: May 22, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

Nice build so far!

Will the sliding door clear with the huffs? Seems like you must have made an extended slider arm.
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dustibus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

(Sorry its been a couple weeks)

Totally spelled "breaks" wrong.........you know when you do something and it just doesn't seem right?? Rolling Eyes ...The GTI calipers seem to hold great! They performed better then my stock shoes... I completely understand Sodo's comment and the statement about the drums performing well, as parking brake's.. Totally makes sense, my Dads old motorcycle (R5) has a dual leading shoe in the front which "engages" both shoes and forces them against the drum, backwards doesn't work at all....not that it matters, you don't go backwards on a motorcycle... But for a car's parking brake that could be in different situations, different angles, hills, foward, backwards.. It makes sense they still use the drums for the parking brakes!! Never thought of that... I was looking for the easiest conversion... And they hold well as far as I can tell... Better then before at least, and I was able to use the stock E-Break cables too! Which was my goal in case I had to replace a broken cable anytime.. In my picture above with the caliper you can see a big "spacer" on my caliper mounted where the cable would go.. There was so much slack in the cable I had to come up with a way to make it work... So added a spacer under the caliper, which stuck down very far and just didn't look right. So ended up moving the spacer to the other end of the cable Shocked Here is the cable setup i ended up with.

Its very dirty from the road and wheel slinging crap onto it, I have an M6 bolt and nut holding the cable to the actuator arm. It isnt sealed exactly how id like, thought about cutting the spring off and then I could add a seal that was around the housing and against the cable that would allow it to seal normally?? Im open to any ideas if anyone wants to chime in on this one.
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On the control arm there was a hole I think from the previous brake line plastic retainer.. It was perfect size for an M10 thread to be tapped into it, along with this scrap piece of aluminum that was laying around to hold the stainless brake line. I put some shrink wrap on it to try and protect it even more
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Bottom side
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Steel spacer I made that fits into the plastic retainer and accepts the cable housing at the other end to, this is to compensate for the super long cable
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Took me a second to think of doing this, the cable is kind of long and wraps around a little, in an S shape which I'm sure adds some drag/resistance to it, but it works and holds better then ever!! I'm very happy with this setup and haven't had 1 problem with it.. They look great too. Don't know whether or not the calipers are on the correct side, I just made sure the bleeders was on top Shocked .
I just put them on the front side (9 o'clock position) facing forward, towards the front of the van... I think I did this because the e-brake cables were not going to work any other way. Over all im super happy with this setup!!!
(the rust looks terrible in this pic, never realized it was there.. Shocked )
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dustibus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

To reply to vw4life's comment, I did NOT have to get a longer sliding door hinge.. it has about 6mm clearance from my door Very Happy . I was very surprised with the 225-40/18's with 20mm spacers that it didnt hit!!!! I definitely had this in mind when I was doing all this
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dustibus
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

Lets Move onto the front shall we??? Cool

OK, so the stock front brakes are single piston caliper with a 257mm? rotor that's not vented, just a single disc. The bearings and the disc are 1 cast piece of steel. Which from what I was thinking, is why the wheel bearings are needing replaced every so often because that heavy van is stopping with the small dia rotor thats not vented, cooking the grease in the bearings(and pads) Seems to me I've replaced the wheel bearings a lot?? And it was a weak point....So with that in mind... I was wanting something big but not overkill, something common, but looks good and works good. Again I have to stick with the 5X112 bolt pattern for a disc. Theres guys getting the corrado 2 piston calipers and some putting the 4runner or is it land rover?? calipers on by tapping out the bolt hole so theyll mount up.... So I started doing a TON of research and kept going in circles not getting anywhere.. So I started looking on E-BAY at porsche calipers, brembos, VW...exc the list goes on... I decided to pick a set of random calipers that I found and dimensionally try to match the rotors up with rotors that would fit my van(trial and error). Rock auto supplies the dimensions on rotors. This took forever!!! So hours later I landed on some brembos that were off a 2005 Mercedes C-class with like 60k miles on them . They were 4 piston and took a 312mm disc that was like 24mm wide.. Well the mk6 GTI discs were about 24 thick, 312 diameter ANDDDD 5X112 diameter Cool . These will work Very Happy . So bought them and bought some discs, they come in the mail and im like ok....Now what Question . Im sitting there looking at these that dont belong together and going to put them on my 88vanagon Shocked .. One step at a time here...

SO first things first, the discs have to fit on the hub, well my hub already has a disc on it with the bearings inside... With a LOT of thinking, i decided to cut the disc off and make my own hub.

No turning back now Shocked
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All cut
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Heres what I want Idea
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Now I need the hub to fit inside here so the disc can bottom on the hub
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So I ended up having to machine the hub down so it would fit inside the disc. You can see the machine marks here and can tell the hub has been turned down (sorry not the best pic)
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Ok so got the hub to fit in the rotor... now to make a bracket for the Brembo caliper to mount to the spindle, And also get the bracket thickness correct so the calipers will be spaced correctly and centered over the disc Shocked... This is wayy harder then it sounds.. So heres what I ended up with

Here is my bracket, it ended up bring i think 24mm thick and the VW bolts were M16X1.5 from what I remember, I had to tap them out so this would bolt in place. The counterbore is for the Brembo caliper bolts, the bracket was wayyy to thick for the original bolts to work and I wanted to use them.. I had to make the counterbore with a big enough diameter for a socket to fit into it.. I gave it like 1mm clearance and all was well Very Happy
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One bolt is longer and I think it had to stay on the bottom because it hit the caliper
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Here the ''adapter'' is bolted in place with the VW caliper bolts
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AND here (my fav photo) is the brembo bolted to my bracket which is bolted to the spindle where the VW caliper goes!!! Cool
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So I ran it like this for a while but noticed after going through water the brakes sucked!! Only for a moment tho, Probably not noticeable to the normal person.... so I made up some disc guards..

Just out of 3mm (ok 1/8'') aluminum, 312mm diameter, same as rotor.. Used the same threaded holes (m6) as the stock guard. I also had to make the centre big enough for the hub to ''fit''
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I also tapped an M6 threaded hole to accept a flat heat 6mm screw to hold the disc in place when I take the tire off
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You've already seen this photo but i had to space out the guard to get it close to the rotor.. you can see the little aluminum spacers here Cool. Also the hub goes through the disc guard and you can see how I had to allow it to fit.
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Ran this for a year and wanted to ''freshin up'' my calipers a bit Cool
Fresh Red powedercoat to match the rear
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Here you can see my guard and how close it ended up to the disc
Also my stainless brake line holder with my aluminum brackets to hole the line in place
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As far as I know this mostly sums up my LONG brake journey that I came up with. This is the first brake setup that ive came up with myself and have not had ANY problems out of it. Im running all stainless lines and have ceramic pads. I thought the ceramic pads were good for dust and with my silver R32 wheels on there they get dusty SOO QUICK.. and looks bad. My van stops noticeably better and although I have the same brake booster and master cylinder(pressure), I have WAY more pad contact and a much bigger diameter as far as the rotors go, also have vented discs that arent going to overheat and cook my bearings, and if they did there would have to be more heat to get to the bearings/pads. The rotor is bigger.. It would take more to heat more material.. I think I did great as far as brakes go.. It was VERY cheep as well. My only expense was the calipers maybe $3 or $400 bucks and new rotors $175 total?.. Everything else I made from scrap stuff at work and came up with all the ideas on my own. I honestly think im more proud of this then my subaru engine and trans... Most ppl overlook my brake setup and concentrate on the engine, you can buy that all day.. But you cant buy this, I made it, and can honestly say, Im proud of myself Very Happy

Ask ANY questions, comments, concerns you have PLEASE!!, Ill talk to you guys later, Ive been on here for HOURS Laughing
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

URA notafraidofit!

Very nice work. Good idea on making that front hub. Must be nice to have those machines available to you.
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'07 EJ25 with '12 longblock, (Peloquin TDB on the shelf), locker, transaxle oil cooler/filtration system. LiFePO
....KTMs, GasGas, and a Stumpjumper
Gear oil is like underwear.
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dustibus
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

Ok lets talk transmissions.. I was running a Subaru with the Vw trans for about a year. The transmission I knew was toast but decided to run it with the new engine and get it running good then move on to either getting a rebuilt trans or possibly Subaru... After LONG hours of research and debating mentally... I figured id go big and go Subaru. Which requires me to build my own trans (you can buy already built but you sure do pay for it$$ Shocked ). With an already huge price tag I figured id do it and save some money. This was not easy and took so many long late hours of research on the Subaru gears site, the samba, various Subaru forums...exc. There is a lot of decisions to be made, what linkage, trans, which gear ratio to go with...the list goes on. So heres what I ended up with

JDM 2002 WRX 5MT transmission (40-50k miles)
Quaife QDH3Y STI Limited slip diff
RS Fab Parts shift linkage
2 Left hand Automatic Transmission axles(short) 531mm (20,5'') Lobro joints
New OEM Subaru clutch with Subaru starter
New front poly transmission mount (T3 Technique)
Had a new clutch line made up from the plastic line(off clutch master)to trans
Subaru Gears Kit with 4.44 gears, also stub axles, and front trans mount
New SUBARU bearings for my diff, also random gaskets/seals

I might edit this list if I come up with anything important I forgot, but for now I think that's it!!!

Ok first things first, buy a transmission Very Happy




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SWEET, It even came with a starter, a full clutch setup, and the speed/neutral sensors Dancing .... NOW WHAT??? I have this transmission, never seen one before, or even took one apart (from a car). And its apparently going in my van?? You just have to keep moving, cant give up now... just dropped $1,300 on this Shocked .

So lets drop another $2,300 on Subaru Gears!!!


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Sight Glass
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CV Joint Adapter
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stub axles
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Subaru trans to Vw mount (so itll bolt to the van)
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All of this stuff if VERY good quality, you get what you pay for.

Well I'm not building all of this and going to be spinning my wheel around turns and getting stuck at inconvenient times. So lets buy a Quaife ATB limited slip diff Applause (which is somewhat difficult to get, they are in the UK and sell EVERYWHERE...Except the USA..figures..)

Ebay score for $800 (you see the pattern here Laughing )


Quaife on the left
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Need a linkage kit because I need to shift Shocked
RS Fab Parts $325
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Ok so now I have most of the stuff, lets get some champagne and tear this thing apart!! Also take loads of pictures so when it comes flying apart I know how it goes back together Rolling Eyes ...I have SOOO many pics from this, so ill just upload the basics..




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NEXT STEP... Lets get this reversed cut ring gear on my Quaife diff!!! (was kinda nervous about all this going together because the diff is from the UK and these gears are from Australia that are going in a Japanese transmission, that's being assembled in the USA, and of course going in my German van Shocked )

First, there is like 12 bolts holding on the ring gear to the diff... I have NO way of holding this, but it has 5 holes
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and since I can make things at work, I got this under control, I just got a piece of phenolic and made a bolt pattern with 5 holes in it, at the specific diameter(don't remember what it is) and reamed the holes, punched in some dowel pins.... this little fixture worked perfect!!!

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Tightened everything down and torqued to spec with red locktite and we're good to go. I cant for the life of me figure out how to get the pic of my fixture uploaded, ive been messing with it for like 30min now, Ill edit it later.... Ill continue this write up another time. (promise it wont be months like last time)
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OrganicMechanic
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Urabus build Reply with quote

Digging this thread, stumbled onto it searching for 4runner brake info...

C-ya'll on the road...
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