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jimdickerson77
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Joined: July 10, 2013
Posts: 43
Location: Southern Oregon
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 Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:32 pm Post subject: Static timing a type IV 1700 with electronic ignition |
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| im wondering how to static set the timing on my 1974 type IV 1700cc. and to what degree it should be set. Im running a pertronixs distributor (what i believe to be a 009 style with vacuum advance.) any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thx. |
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TomWesty
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Joined: November 23, 2007
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Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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If it is vacuum advance, it isn't a 009 type. Static time might be okay just to start it, but you really should set it with a timing light. I am not T4 literate so I can't help you, but others on here are.
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busdaddy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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I sure hope that's only to get it running because to drive it you really have to set the timing at 3500+ RPM with a light or you risk walking for a long time.
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=572559&highlight=
Yesterdays reply-
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| jimdickerson77 wrote: |
| pertronix 009 (vac advanced) distributor |
That's a new one. An 009 is mechanical only. |
If it starts the way it's installed now you don't static time it, so forget about that. Static timing is only to get it close enough that it will start.
If it doesn't start now then rotate the engine CW manually until you are at the TDC zero degree mark. With a test light, multimeter, or even a timing light rotate the distributor CCW until is shows the point where the ignition fires. (Same with a points replacement module or just points). You will probably rotate the distributor back and forth a few times until you get it just right. Now the only question/concern is if it's at the firing position for #1 or #3. So plug either one of those plug wires into the distributor cap directly above the rotor and then the remaining wires into the cap going CW following the firing order. It's a 50/50 chance that it will start in that position. If not then walk all the wires around the cap 180 degrees and it should start and run.
The other method of knowing if you are at #1 TDC or #3 TDC is to pull either valve cover and check to see the valve actuating positioning.
So once it's running, or if had been previously running without a static time then time it now to the maximum advance. With your timing light attached to EITHER #1 or #3 plug wire, rev it up until the spark doesn't advance any more and rotate the distributor until it's at 30 degrees BTDC and then lock down the clamp. Make sure it's at max advance which depending on the distributor is around 3K or 3.5K RPM.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50356
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done. With points you can get a high degree of accuracy, but not with an electronic pickup. You want to set your timing to 28-30° BTDC at 3500+ rpm with the hoses off.
You can pick of a timing light at most any flea market or look for one on sale. For traveling, I have a super cheap $10 Sears unit I pickup up on sale a couple of years back, it works as well as the more expensive units I own that stay under lock and key. |
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Desertbusman
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Joined: June 03, 2005
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done. |
Read my post again.  It was about setting it statically close enough so it would start and run which works at zero degree TDC. He asked about statically timing it so evidently he couldn't get it started.
Naturally, no one is going to set the actual good timing statically or even waste time trying to do it
And contrary to what you said you can set a Pertronix statically to first get it running. I've done it - I do it. With my engines very first startup I set it to zero. Primed the oil galleries, built pressure with the plugs out, and filled the carb. One pedal pump and it instantly fired probably on the first revolution. Immediatly took it up to 2K for the break in. Then later after the run in actually set it correctly at max advance.
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done. |
Read my post again. It was about setting it statically close enough so it would start and run which works at zero degree TDC. He asked about statically timing it so evidently he couldn't get it started.
Naturally, no one is going to set the actual good timing statically or even waste time trying to do it
And contrary to what you said you can set a Pertronix statically to first get it running. I've done it - I do it. With my engines very first startup I set it to zero. Primed the oil galleries, built pressure with the plugs out, and filled the carb. One pedal pump and it fired probably on the first revolution. |
So throw out your timing light if it isn't needed to set your timing.  I will stick by what I said: "You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done." Just because you can set the timing statically close enough to get it running doesn't mean it is close enough to hit the byways.  |
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Desertbusman
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Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
So throw out your timing light if it isn't needed to set your timing. I will stick by what I said: "You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done." Just because you can set the timing statically close enough to get it running doesn't mean it is close enough to hit the byways. |
I'm really sorry you arn't able to read and comprehend anything tonight.
Didn't I say to do it statically to get it to run and then a timing light to set the final max advance?
maybe bad beer?
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jimdickerson77
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Joined: July 10, 2013
Posts: 43
Location: Southern Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| thank you everybody for the shared knowledge.. one other question.. if my progressive setup ends up being a issue ( idle adjustments and what not ) would it be pointless to time my engine without having that cleared up first? thx.. |
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Wasted youth
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Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:33 am Post subject: |
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It's too bad you mentioned you have a Progressive. You'll probably get an earfull about that.  However, I was able to get mine properly jetted and tuned, and it is on a 1973 bus with a 1700cc and automatic transmission.
Given that it is recommended to remove and plug the vacuum line when setting the timing, I'd say that if your carburetion was reasonable enough to make it down the road, that it should not be an issue setting timing right now. But changing your timing to make up for carburetion issues will likely be a fatal mistake  You will need to immediatley address carburetion and vacuum issues. Other folks with more experience may disagree.
Funny you mention the vacuum-advanced 009 type. I received my engine with a worn out 009, then was given another with single vacuum advance. I wound up using neither of these, instead installing a new SVDA electronic distributor (not in picture). The written code shown here is what I found stamped on the body of each one. I have had people tell me the dizzy on the right is not an 009. If that's not, then I have no idea what it is. Maybe someone modified it to accept a vaccum advance 
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
So throw out your timing light if it isn't needed to set your timing. I will stick by what I said: You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done. Just because you can set the timing statically close enough to get it running doesn't mean it is close enough to hit the byways. |
I'm really sorry you arn't able to read and comprehend anything tonight.
Didn't I say to do it statically to get it to run and then a timing light to set the final max advance?
maybe bad beer? |
Do you think that the world revolves around you? My original post was totally in response to the OP question which doesn't mention just trying to get a start, in fact his other thread indicated he has been driving his rig, but it just doesn't run well. My second was to keep him from following you off on a tangent. So again I will still stick by what I have previously said:
"You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done. With points you can get a high degree of accuracy, but not with an electronic pickup. You want to set your timing to 28-30° BTDC at 3500+ rpm with the hoses off."
"Just because you can set the timing statically close enough to get it running doesn't mean it is close enough to hit the byways." |
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aryue
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 1027
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Wildthings -
There is nothing wrong with setting the distributor timing close enough to get the engine to run - and - then immediately set the timing properly with a strobe timing light @ high rpm with the vacuum line to the advance canister disconnected. I've done so myself.
Cheer up a bit.
- Andrew in Austin, TX -
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| aryue wrote: |
Wildthings -
There is nothing wrong with setting the distributor timing close enough to get the engine to run - and - then immediately set the timing properly with a strobe timing light @ high rpm with the vacuum line to the advance canister disconnected. I've done so myself.
Cheer up a bit.
- Andrew in Austin, TX - |
Jesus, I haven't even slightly implied there was anything wrong with getting the engine to start by timing it statically, but the OP didn't ask that, he didn't mention starting in this thread at all and in a previous thread indicated that his engine was running. He needs to beg, borrow, or buy a timing light and accurately set his timing dynamically, so his engine runs strong, cool, and long.
| jimdickerson77 wrote: |
First off i want to say thank you to all the people who post and the fountain of knowledge i have come to love as a new comer browsing these pages..
I have a handful of questions i could sure use some advice on. I have a fresh rebuilt 1700 in my '74 westy. Im running a Empi progressive carb and a pertronix 009 (vac advanced) distributor ignition,coil, plug wires. im west coast so i dont have the hard starting issue i hear so much about. Although i do question why it wants to fall on its face when i attempt to "stomp" it wide open from a dead stop. I also just noticed my recently new #1 cylinder plug wire (pertronixs) at the plug boot looks as if it just came out of a camp fire. yea its charred pretty bad. my timing is correct, my air/fuel ratio i believe is good and i dont believe there to be any blockage in my cooling tins. what would cause this? |
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jimdickerson77
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Joined: July 10, 2013
Posts: 43
Location: Southern Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| aryue wrote: |
Wildthings -
There is nothing wrong with setting the distributor timing close enough to get the engine to run - and - then immediately set the timing properly with a strobe timing light @ high rpm with the vacuum line to the advance canister disconnected. I've done so myself.
Cheer up a bit.
- Andrew in Austin, TX - |
i run my vacuum line to a port on my carb NOT to a "canister" is this wrong? |
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jimdickerson77
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Joined: July 10, 2013
Posts: 43
Location: Southern Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Wasted youth/adulthood wrote: |
It's too bad you mentioned you have a Progressive. You'll probably get an earfull about that. However, I was able to get mine properly jetted and tuned, and it is on a 1973 bus with a 1700cc and automatic transmission.
Given that it is recommended to remove and plug the vacuum line when setting the timing, I'd say that if your carburetion was reasonable enough to make it down the road, that it should not be an issue setting timing right now. But changing your timing to make up for carburetion issues will likely be a fatal mistake You will need to immediatley address carburetion and vacuum issues. Other folks with more experience may disagree.
Funny you mention the vacuum-advanced 009 type. I received my engine with a worn out 009, then was given another with single vacuum advance. I wound up using neither of these, instead installing a new SVDA electronic distributor (not in picture). The written code shown here is what I found stamped on the body of each one. I have had people tell me the dizzy on the right is not an 009. If that's not, then I have no idea what it is. Maybe someone modified it to accept a vaccum advance
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ive been corrected and told my pertronix flamethrower distributor (with vac advance) is not of 009 fashion..my bad. |
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Desertbusman
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Posts: 14655
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
"You can't accurately set the timing of an electronic ignition system statically. Just can't be done. With points you can get a high degree of accuracy, but not with an electronic pickup. You want to set your timing to 28-30° BTDC at 3500+ rpm with the hoses off."
"Just because you can set the timing statically close enough to get it running doesn't mean it is close enough to hit the byways." |
Of course you can't set the timing advance statically. Or statically accurately enough to drive it. No one ever said it could be done so why keep argueing with no one? The only reason everyone does it statically is to get it close enough so that it will run and then they can use the timing light to get it correctly timed.
And contrary to what you keep saying you can statically set it for the initial startup timing with a points replacement module (at least with Pertronix) just as easy as with points.
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fez68
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Posts: 242
Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Static timing a type IV 1700 with electronic ignition |
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| I set mine staticly with a petronix ignitor and then drove across the country. worked great. is going cross country considered hitting the byways?? |
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Mispeld
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Joined: April 29, 2018
Posts: 355
Location: Jacksonville - Coastal NC
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Static timing a type IV 1700 with electronic ignition |
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| Yes, I'd consider that hitting the byways. Welcome back from your cross country time traveling trip... this post is a most 5 years old! |
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fez68
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Location: massachusetts
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Static timing a type IV 1700 with electronic ignition |
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| Ya. I was just browsing the forum. I got a laugh at people fighting over static timing . Thought i would chime in. When i had my first bus in the early 90's i allways timed it staticly and left it. Now i am finishing a 68 westy resto (with a 1641 i had rebuit in 1998 i had saved) and i am going to time it at full advance and see how it does. |
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Randy in Maine
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Static timing a type IV 1700 with electronic ignition |
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Really depends on the distributor. My 1970 bus came with a "vacuum advance only" SVA distributor and it was OK to time it statically.
My 1971 Super came with a DVDA and it had to be timed using a real timing light.
Usually if you statically time a distributor with a centrifical advance function to TDC, it should start and then you can time it using a real light. |
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