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CSP Disc Brake Conversion
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Big Red Love
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

I have been contemplating doing this conversion for quite some time, bit the bullet, arrived today. Kit #C31-499-181-5205 for solid 14" wheels. Looks great. Cant wait to get started!

Questions as follows:
I just last year replaced my dual circuit m/c with a good German stock replacement. The instructions that came with the kit recommended I replace the m/c. However the instructions seem to be a little general (cookie cut), and they speak of m/c replacement for 55-67 buses. No mention of the 181. Do I need to replace my master cylinder again with the part # specified by CSP? #611 021 211AA

I know there are some of you out there that have already done this conversion and I was hoping someone took some good pics in process?
I did find a good pic of the completed job recently in "What did you do to your Thing today" but I would really like some pics before the rotor assembly is installed for reference.

Are there any pointers, tricks, cautions that I should be aware of before starting?

Thanks
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locky
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have the CSP discs but do have the AC Industries. I went with the same M/C and haven't had any problems at all. Those CSP's look really nice. Installation is straight forward. You are going to love them.
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seilerj
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well what did you end up doing??

I recently bought the CSP kit and will be doing the conversion sometime during my build up (still a work in progress) Some instructions that I read indicated that I needed either a new master cylinder designed for disc brakes or I can remove the residual pressure valve.

How easy is it to remove the residual pressure valve??(I'm assuming only for fronts, back will stay drums)

Are there kits to rebuild an existing master cylinder?? Or are you better off just buying a new quality master cylinder designed for disc brakes ?
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wbrown45
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they are using stock VW calipers, or even calipers about the same size (pistons, etc.) you do not need a new master cylinder, or even a proportioning valve. The stock Ghia master was the same as a std. bug when they started using disc brakes, until the end of their production. I have 4-wheel disc brakes on my Baja with VW calipers, and I have a stock, unmodified German master, and no additional proportioning valve. It has been working extremely well for over 19 years.
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HMVWNAB
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

How long does this kit typically remain out of stock? I’ve checked the website for awhile and never seems to be available.
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HMVWNAB
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

I see the kit is back in stock now.

In the meantime I was reading the forums and now am wondering if it is worth the roughly $1000 price difference from the AC unit.

If the functionality is near equivalent, what are you paying the extra for?

Apparently AC is coming out with a new kit shortly I was told on the So Cal chat help line.
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

HMVWNAB wrote:
I see the kit is back in stock now.

In the meantime I was reading the forums and now am wondering if it is worth the roughly $1000 price difference from the AC unit.

If the functionality is near equivalent, what are you paying the extra for?

Apparently AC is coming out with a new kit shortly I was told on the So Cal chat help line.


2 things:
1) The CSP kit is higher quality than the Chinese kits.
2) The CSP kit is the only kit available that can be used with the stock 14" Thing wheels.

On the other hand, if you are willing to switch to 15" wheels, the choice for both disc brake kits and (especially) tires is larger.
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HMVWNAB
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

I was hoping you would chime in since you’ve been there, done that. Thanks!
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

I know CSP offers a vented rotor with their kits.

AC Industries does not, and CB had a black rotor that is cross drilled.
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HMVWNAB
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

Reading the disc brake install posts in the bus forum, the comment comes up that it seems to take more foot pressure to stop the car with discs.

Have you noticed this with the Thing as well?
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

Actually, I have found the opposite. In fact the pedal pressure was reduced to the point that stops from low speeds would occasionally fail to actuate the (new, German) brake light switches. I have taken steps to correct this, but that's another story.
My Thing has the stock sized master cylinder (19mm?) and drum rear brakes, with stock sized wheel cylinders. I believe that only with 4 wheel disc brakes, a larger bore master cylinder is required.
My limited understanding of hydraulics tells me that a larger bore master cylinder will require more foot pressure.

I think you will be very happy with the improvement in braking performance after converting to front disc brakes. Four wheel disc brakes would be nice (no more brake adjustments), but the bang-for-the buck is with the front brakes.
Good luck, Mondshine
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hobie16
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

mondshine wrote:
Actually, I have found the opposite. In fact the pedal pressure was reduced to the point that stops from low speeds would occasionally fail to actuate the (new, German) brake light switches. I have taken steps to correct this, but that's another story.
My Thing has the stock sized master cylinder (19mm?) and drum rear brakes, with stock sized wheel cylinders. I believe that only with 4 wheel disc brakes, a larger bore master cylinder is required.
My limited understanding of hydraulics tells me that a larger bore master cylinder will require more foot pressure.

I think you will be very happy with the improvement in braking performance after converting to front disc brakes. Four wheel disc brakes would be nice (no more brake adjustments), but the bang-for-the buck is with the front brakes.
Good luck, Mondshine

Word. I couldn't believe the difference after converting from front drums to disks. I no longer have to go to the gym to get my right leg muscles looking like an Olympic speed skater.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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mondshine
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

Here’s a little tidbit for those who are using CSP (front) disc brakes.

These kits (with solid rotors) all use the same Delco Moraine calipers made in France.

I have purchased replacement pads from CIP1, because it seemed impossible to find these parts anywhere but online from VW parts suppliers.

Well it turned out that the same Delco Moraine 40-13010 calipers were used on the 1992 Pontiac LeMans 1.6L L4. The Pontiac calipers were manufactured by both Delco and GM’s Korean partner Daewoo.

Now, not meaning to sound like a chauvinist bigot, but my opinion of the difference in build quality between a French or a Korean product is as thin as a sheet of paper.

So on a lark, I ordered a pair of re-man calipers from Rock Auto, just to see for myself.
The Beck/Arnley 0790731 (Left) and 0790732 (Right) are an exact match for the CSP calipers that came with the kit on the business side of the caliper. The "dead" side of the old CSP calipers would have to be re-used. The two halves of the calipers are attached with two M12 bolts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The re-man calipers were $18.59 each (including pads and hardware), and they are Delco Moraine, made in France. There were others available for a few dollars more.

So you could walk into the corner auto parts store and ask for calipers, seals, brake pads, hardware, etc. for a ’92 Pontiac LeMans, and pay a small fraction of the price of “CSP” parts that aren’t made in Germany by CSP anyway.

Some part numbers:
Beck/Arnley 0790731 and 0790732 re-manufactured calipers.
Wagner H8204 guide pin boot kit.
Delco 18H195 piston seal and dust boot kit.

Good luck, Mondshine


Last edited by mondshine on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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911pickup
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

What about the caliper brackets? I haven't checked-can they be ordered separately from CSP?
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:51 pm    Post subject: Re: CSP Disc Brake Conversion Reply with quote

I believe that the caliper brackets and the hubs are the only components that are actually manufactured by CSP.
The rotors are made by Sebro (who manufactures rotors for lots of European cars).

While I am still basically satisfied with the CSP kit, there are some details that are just plain stupid.
For example, there is no provision in the aluminum hubs for removing the wheel bearing races; no place to position a drift punch, unlike every VW drum or rotor I have ever seen. You have to make your own, which is a big disappointment from a costly component made in Germany.
Additionally, you would be hard pressed to find a brake lathe with tooling that could turn the rotors without first removing them from the hubs. Once the hubs and rotors are separated and re-attached, there is no guarantee that the rotors will still be flat and run true (within a grand or so).

Honestly, with all of the B.S. involved, I think the way to go with disc brakes would be to switch to 15 inch wheels; either 4 or 5 lug, but not "wide 5".
Late Type 3's had great brakes; rear drums separate from the rear hubs, and brilliantly engineered front calipers. I wonder if the Type 3 front spindles and wheel bearings are the same dimensions as on Things.
No matter what, the choice of rotors, calipers (even genuine VW) and tires would be greater, and the wheels could be balanced by "anybody".

Too late for me, but maybe others will benefit from my experience.
Good luck, Mondshine
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