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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:31 am Post subject: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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Well this if anything ought to be entertaining.
From a pure airflow standpoint with multi point fuel injection and force fed with a turbo. How much could one of these in theory support?
The reason being is I am converting my dual Weber 2165 turbo to fuel injection with a centrally mounted single throttle body. Now I can make anything but as someone who’s been paid to do so for a living I really appreciate something ready made and a progressive Weber center section would put my throttle body exactly where I want it and be pretty easily adapted. The aluminum will be nice for tapping for various sensors as well.
Should I elect to use one vs making a center section it would be used with a pair of standard size CB performance FI end castings. _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7229 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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That depends very much at which end casting you will be using. Stock or aftermarket types that resembles stock but with injector bungs can support 180 - 190ish hp @ 14 psi boost. Use say CB hi performance end castings you can add at least 40 hp maybe even more. |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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No, I'd go for a deano zenith manifold with 1 1/2 tubes if it's port injection.
There are many kinds of progressive manifold, what kind do you have? |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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modok wrote: |
No, I'd go for a deano zenith manifold with 1 1/2 tubes if it's port injection.
There are many kinds of progressive manifold, what kind do you have? |
I don’t
But there’s several on the classifieds at any given time dirty cheap. Clearly an open plenum will be required to use with a single throttle body
Simply put I will make one before I do weird hard to find obsolete exotic _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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Exotic? Glad you think so. I only pay 20$ these things, or less.
I remember that one, funny story, I TRIED to make the guy keep the carter that was on it, but "the conditions of the sale" was that I would have to dispose of the carburetor myself, which I have done
You need it, lemme know. |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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modok wrote: |
Exotic? Glad you think so. I only pay 20$ these things, or less.
I remember that one, funny story, I TRIED to make the guy keep the carter that was on it, but "the conditions of the sale" was that I would have to dispose of the carburetor myself, which I have done
You need it, lemme know. |
Well it might be a moot point. I went and dug an old China knockoff Weber I had in the shed that was given to me to compare with
With a 2” throttle body it looks like the bolt holes for the intake are going to be occupying the same space as the frame on the throttle body. So it’s looking like this is gonna be a MAKE situation _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Ebel Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2015 Posts: 564 Location: New york
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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I heard early vw gti throttle bodies will fit on the progressive manifold. But they used CIS injection so I think you would need to add a throttle position sensor. I think some Audi throttle bodies used the same bolt pattern but a little bit larger bore. |
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sled Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 6179
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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like this?
_________________ drive your split. |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:02 am Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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Ebel wrote: |
I heard early vw gti throttle bodies will fit on the progressive manifold. But they used CIS injection so I think you would need to add a throttle position sensor. I think some Audi throttle bodies used the same bolt pattern but a little bit larger bore. |
I looked into using one but the bigger issue seemed to be the unusual boot for the inlet.
Now that you mention it it might be kinda cool looking to modify that Chinese Weber knockoff into a throttle body if I could add a TPS...you can get a round inlet adapter for these _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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vwfreek61 Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2004 Posts: 350 Location: Green Bay, WI
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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Ebel wrote: |
I heard early vw gti throttle bodies will fit on the progressive manifold. But they used CIS injection so I think you would need to add a throttle position sensor. I think some Audi throttle bodies used the same bolt pattern but a little bit larger bore. |
The throttle body from a 2.0 Passat 16v automatic has a throttle position sensor, but uses the CIS style boot. The throttle body from a Corrado G60 automatic has the same bolt pattern as the CIS manifold and has a round inlet boot. _________________ Kenneth
1964 Bug with Saxomat
1976 VW/Harley Trike Autostick
1987 Vanagon Westy w/Subaru EJ25 and reversed 4EAT |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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vwfreek61 wrote: |
Ebel wrote: |
I heard early vw gti throttle bodies will fit on the progressive manifold. But they used CIS injection so I think you would need to add a throttle position sensor. I think some Audi throttle bodies used the same bolt pattern but a little bit larger bore. |
The throttle body from a 2.0 Passat 16v automatic has a throttle position sensor, but uses the CIS style boot. The throttle body from a Corrado G60 automatic has the same bolt pattern as the CIS manifold and has a round inlet boot. |
Some great information fellas!!! I would love to use on of these throttle bodies but the intake boot is definitely a huge stumbling block.
For the sake of standard intake boots and ease of disassembling in the future I still really want to use something based on a VW center section. From the comments here it doesn’t really sound like much of a hindrance from a pure hp prospective _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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I'd say cut the deano manifold shorter, weld on a flange and put the throttle as low as possible.
Dean would think it's cool. And you have to paint it purple.
The less volume between the throttle and heads.....the less lopey the idle and cruise will be.
IMO the cross tube should be 1.5 OD, throttle body 1 3/4 to 2" so maybe 50mm |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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modok wrote: |
I'd say cut the deano manifold shorter, weld on a flange and put the throttle as low as possible.
Dean would think it's cool. And you have to paint it purple.
The less volume between the throttle and heads.....the less lopey the idle and cruise will be.
IMO the cross tube should be 1.5 OD, throttle body 1 3/4 to 2" so maybe 50mm |
I will just cut down the 2” charge pipe I have now and deal with awkward sized boots first. Also I can weld steel, cast iron, stainless and even copper. Aluminum alludes me
My throttle body is a very simple square flange from a 1992 ford tempo with a 2.3 hsc engine 2” butterfly 2.75 inlet piping square flang external IAC as simple to point as possible. It opens the same direction as a solex carb. That deano intake absolutely will not work as the throttle arm cannot hang over the side. _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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To give you guys an idea of what I’m working with here is the TB sitting on a Weber Carter BBD adaptor
If I can make something to mate these two shapes I would be set with a standard open plenum dgav intake you guys love to hate on lol
_________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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Is that a plus?
If it opened the other direction you could mount it lower, well, not that one it's got tons of stuff hanging off the side.
Just brainstorming
Build it out of steel is fine too. I make flanges with my Bridgeport and have my guy weld it together, but, my guy retired. You can also water-jet flanges.
I got some real nice compact throttle bodies off a toyota v8, but IAC would have to be remote, although that would be ok with me. I'd rather do the high idle manually. Computer controlled idle speed, whoop dee freakin do. |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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I got really lucky
The bugpack “rpm” intake I ended up with from the classified is a 1.5” tube intake.
The plan which is well on its way is to make an adapter o plate out of 1” aluminum to mate these two parts in everlasting holy matrimony
_________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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I think I will add a couple vacuum/boost ports to the plate since my cb end castings have no such provisions
Of course I’ll do some die grinding and port matching. This is just the rough machining
_________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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NICE! |
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buguy Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 4915 Location: Port Orange, FL
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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I don't quite understand why your going through all that instead of just making your own "T"? |
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Krochus Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2017 Posts: 892 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Horsepower potential with progressive manifold via turbo |
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buguy wrote: |
I don't quite understand why your going through all that instead of just making your own "T"? |
Boredom, uniqueness, boredom
It would certainly have been easier to have simply made my own T
Hell I actually already have one if I was to cut down my existing charge pipe _________________ 1970 Turbo Baja Bug Turbaja 2165 t3/t4 Speeduino sequential EFI LS3 coil on plug ignition
1965 Chevy c30, Microsquirt turbo aluminum 5.3/nv4500 |
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