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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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 Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Building a Viking Expedition Bug |
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Today it happened. I bought my first, second and third beetle during the same day.. Some days are for sure special..
Its a T1 -68 with a swing axel.
Those are my intentions:
Baja inspired bug adjusted to Scandinavian usage
Will be fully legal and registered with everything
Subaru boxer or VAG 1,9 TDI engine with RGBs.
Link pin frontend widened probably 6-8"
IRS rear widened 3x3 or 4x4 or similar
Some fenders, not sure about the style yet, something is a must
Breaks from the donor car of the engine. ABS, at least the hardware, the software will be a project after it's road legal.
Will try to keep a setup that gives me a lot of value for the money. I'm not hunting seconds here. The car is a reason for me to pick up my fabrication skills again and will be a great one to drive every now and then on top of my regular one. I'm not building something to polish, I will be using it.
Edit:
For the sake of clarification. I'm not building a car to fit any race or regulations that come along with a race. I'm building an offroad vehicle for myself to use. However, I want it to be inspired by a Baja Bug as far as I can manage it together with all domestic legislation. The name of the topic changes as feedback arrived, I love iterations, everything gets better with quick iterations!
This is what I dragged home:
Some previous questions I got some great help with from some members. Its all for this project so from now on I keep it all here. Feel free to ask questions or support me when I need advise.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8988685#8988685
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=711714[/list]
Last edited by saabmosare on Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:39 am; edited 7 times in total |
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Mikedrevguy
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008
Posts: 2306
Location: No. Idaho
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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Congratulations!! What plans?
_________________
74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| Mikedrevguy wrote: |
| Congratulations!! What plans? |
First of all lift the body and repair the panels from rust. It’s a 68 so will change the front beams to a link pin and install IRS at the same time. Widen it 6-8” and extend the wheel base a bit. Subaru boxer or VAG engine. Not sure yet. Actually even started to consider and electric conversion. But this is the last decision. Got plenty of things to take care of before.
Also need to figure out some fenders that will look good. They are required by law. And most important of all, start the registration process to get all the rebuils approved and registered. Needs to be enforced for the new power and get brakes and suspension updates. I guess it will change during the process.
But right now is the target to lift the body and make sure it runs so I can move it around when needed. Front beam will be first part after that. |
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lelef
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2013
Posts: 215
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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hello, this is my buggy
[url] https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563874&highlight=[/url]
Now I live in south of France but I lived a lot of years in north Italy and off roading is different , I use the buggy only in summer a 4x4 in winter, a 2wd car with snow rain and mud is really more difficult to drive ,you don't have slow(crawler) ratios and a faster drive is needed to do the same things
| Quote: |
Baja inspired bug adjusted to Scandinavian usage
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Firs of all think to safety, a roll cage strengthens the chassis and save your life! ,if you do't use an helmet put something soft around the cage!
tree bars/side bars for all the obstacles you can find are really good
| Quote: |
Will be fully legal and registered with everything
Link pin frontend widened probably 6-8"
IRS rear widened 3x3 or 4x4 or similar
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to be legal pay attention at the car width, a lot of US baja bug coud not be legal in Europe ,mine has 3x3 at he rear and it's just in the legal limit
for me a rear wider than the front in a rear drive car is better for steering and stability
a long travel suspension needs 930cv joint ,keep in mind that off road tyres ,long travel suspension on the road is an orrible mix to drive I use mine on road the most of times just to go in a place for off roading so, if you want something 50/50 road /off road don't exaggerate
| Quote: |
Some fenders, not sure about the style yet, something is a must
Breaks from the donor car of the engine. |
there are a lot of fiberglass parts, at the front a flip front should be the best choice, at the rear there is a lot of choice, you can also use your front fender at the rear with some mods
for brakes think first at bolt pattern ,the hub and the brake is a single piece in vw beetles, at the rear mine has a CB performance disch brake kit with Ford bolt pattern , at the front same bolt pattern (not a commercial kit) with a Ford bolt pattern there a lot of differenet rims for every tyre you want to use
If you want good quality parts for suspensions ,brakes and rims look at the US market, in Europe there isn't a lot ,start with cheap/inappropriate parts very often means do the work twice
also a lsd is very useful otherwise a double hand brake (to lock only the spinning tyre)
I hope these ideas are useful to you |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| lelef wrote: |
hello, this is my buggy
[url] https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=563874&highlight=[/url]
Now I live in south of France but I lived a lot of years in north Italy and off roading is different , I use the buggy only in summer a 4x4 in winter, a 2wd car with snow rain and mud is really more difficult to drive ,you don't have slow(crawler) ratios and a faster drive is needed to do the same things
| Quote: |
Baja inspired bug adjusted to Scandinavian usage
|
Firs of all think to safety, a roll cage strengthens the chassis and save your life! ,if you do't use an helmet put something soft around the cage!
tree bars/side bars for all the obstacles you can find are really good
| Quote: |
Will be fully legal and registered with everything
Link pin frontend widened probably 6-8"
IRS rear widened 3x3 or 4x4 or similar
|
to be legal pay attention at the car width, a lot of US baja bug coud not be legal in Europe ,mine has 3x3 at he rear and it's just in the legal limit
for me a rear wider than the front in a rear drive car is better for steering and stability
a long travel suspension needs 930cv joint ,keep in mind that off road tyres ,long travel suspension on the road is an orrible mix to drive I use mine on road the most of times just to go in a place for off roading so, if you want something 50/50 road /off road don't exaggerate
| Quote: |
Some fenders, not sure about the style yet, something is a must
Breaks from the donor car of the engine. |
there are a lot of fiberglass parts, at the front a flip front should be the best choice, at the rear there is a lot of choice, you can also use your front fender at the rear with some mods
for brakes think first at bolt pattern ,the hub and the brake is a single piece in vw beetles, at the rear mine has a CB performance disch brake kit with Ford bolt pattern , at the front same bolt pattern (not a commercial kit) with a Ford bolt pattern there a lot of differenet rims for every tyre you want to use
If you want good quality parts for suspensions ,brakes and rims look at the US market, in Europe there isn't a lot ,start with cheap/inappropriate parts very often means do the work twice
also a lsd is very useful otherwise a double hand brake (to lock only the spinning tyre)
I hope these ideas are useful to you |
Thanks a lot for your support! I would never use a helmet in a car. In case of a crash your spine will snap asap unless your helmet is strapped to something. But some kind of cage I wikl arange to at least increace my odds surviving a crash.
Regulations wise I have it all clear for me. We are allowed to build custom cars here as long as we build by the regulations and pass 3 build checkups. So I know everything I can do, however its a puzzle to match what with what I want to do and also to build a car that works on roads. It will mainly be used there but still have the baja style.
I recently got a lot of parts home.
A -65 bus tranny with 1,26 ration RBGs. Half of it is disassembled so far. Will but all parts in electrolysis later on to save them from the rust. After treating them with some sandblast and paint.
My plate and body. Not as bad as I expected actually. Bought an IRS rear end ill pick up later on together with a lathe.
My two extra donor cars for all parts i might need. Expectet two link pin front beams but only got one.. However, now I have one.
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5848
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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I think you have some good ideas. I will like to see your Baja when it is finished and on the road. Well...To most of us, the project is ongoing and is NEVER "finished". Much as the Earth is never "finished". It continues to evolve.
As far as wearing a helmet inside a car with a cage...
1 - With a helmet or without a helmet, your head should never hit the roll cage. The contact can be expected to be bad either way. My son was getting something out of my Baja 8 years ago and stood up before he got his head outside. As he raised up, he hit the back of his head on the cage, shaking the whole car, making a loud sort of "clang" noise and yelled "OW!!!" It left a big lump on the back of his head. Tonight at dinner, he was telling me that he still has that lump. The car wasn't moving or running at the time. Padding the cage will help such contact
2 - The roll cage should be away from our head as much as possible to reduce chance of contact in a crash. You would be amazed how much the body moves around in a car during a crash, even WITH racing seat belts properly adjusted.
3 - To prevent your head from contacting the roll cage in a crash, whether there is a helmet involved or not, SEAT BELTS are REQUIRED!!!!!!
4 - There have been MANY thousands of race car crashes over the past century without use of head and neck restraints WITHOUT the driver (or passenger) snapping their spine. Just as there have been many thousands of car crashes on the public roads when drivers did not snap their spine. There have also been crashes on the road without helmets when people have snapped their spine. Regardless of that, when my son races offroad or even while testing like he did today, he wears a head and neck restraint.
This picture of me in a play buggy ready to take of on an offroad adventure was taken in 2004, when HNRs were in their infancy.
So no...you don't have to worry about having to have an HNR to wear a helmet. Good idea though if you are getting serious offroad.
Still you can have a roll cage in a daily driver car used much of the time on public roads without having to wear a helmet or a HNR. I drove my Baja Bug nearly 500,000 miles with a roll bar and then a full cage without wearing a helmet.
In the 1970s
As it is now
The car now has over 800,000 miles on it. It's had a roll bar/cage since it had 375K on it. Nope. You DO NOT HAVE TO wear a helmet in a car with a roll cage.
But a roll cage has structural function as well as crash protection. If you're going to install a +6 beam and 3x3 rear arms, then a cage is needed to support that wider suspension and mount the shocks. a +6 beam mounted to a stock frame head without tubular structure to support the outer ends is weaker and far more easily bent than a stock beam in a stock Bug. Even if the +6 beam is made of 4130 chrome moly tubing. And the longer wider suspension applies much more leverage and force to the body structure than VW designed it for.
You do not have to install coil over shocks to install 3x3 rear arms, that buggy of my friend that you see me in above has 5x6 rear arms with Rancho dual tube shocks and torsion bars. Works great without coilovers.
Now, let's talk about the concept of RGBs at the rear. I approve of RGBs in a swing axle Baja Bug. But with a "No-Hop" kit applied to the installation.
But you're talking about IRS and 3x3s too. It's possible to install RGBs on an IRS setup. It HAS been done. I've even seen it here on the Samba. But it takes a lot of machining and fabricating to achieve it, even if you are using the rare (and only ever available in certain parts of the world at that) Bus IRS with RGBs. One fellow in the US and on here actually HAS a set of those RGBs. One COULD cut the outer end of the RGB swingaxle and weld a CV flange to it, then mount the RGB to the end of a custom fabricated IRS arm. I would STILL attach the RGB to the arm so it can pivot on the upper axle axis, and have a link rod below like a no-hop for swing axle. But unless one is prepared to do all of that, I suggest deciding whether you want RGBs on a swingaxle or you want IRS.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:01 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
I think you have some good ideas. I will like to see your Baja when it is finished and on the road. Well...To most of us, the project is ongoing and is NEVER "finished". Much as the Earth is never "finished". It continues to evolve.
As far as wearing a helmet inside a car with a cage...
1 - With a helmet or without a helmet, your head should never hit the roll cage. The contact can be expected to be bad either way. My son was getting something out of my Baja 8 years ago and stood up before he got his head outside. As he raised up, he hit the back of his head on the cage, shaking the whole car, making a loud sort of "clang" noise and yelled "OW!!!" It left a big lump on the back of his head. Tonight at dinner, he was telling me that he still has that lump. The car wasn't moving or running at the time. Padding the cage will help such contact
2 - The roll cage should be away from our head as much as possible to reduce chance of contact in a crash. You would be amazed how much the body moves around in a car during a crash, even WITH racing seat belts properly adjusted.
3 - To prevent your head from contacting the roll cage in a crash, whether there is a helmet involved or not, SEAT BELTS are REQUIRED!!!!!!
4 - There have been MANY thousands of race car crashes over the past century without use of head and neck restraints WITHOUT the driver (or passenger) snapping their spine. Just as there have been many thousands of car crashes on the public roads when drivers did not snap their spine. There have also been crashes on the road without helmets when people have snapped their spine. Regardless of that, when my son races offroad or even while testing like he did today, he wears a head and neck restraint.
This picture of me in a play buggy ready to take of on an offroad adventure was taken in 2004, when HNRs were in their infancy.
So no...you don't have to worry about having to have an HNR to wear a helmet. Good idea though if you are getting serious offroad.
Still you can have a roll cage in a daily driver car used much of the time on public roads without having to wear a helmet or a HNR. I drove my Baja Bug nearly 500,000 miles with a roll bar and then a full cage without wearing a helmet.
In the 1970s
As it is now
The car now has over 800,000 miles on it. It's had a roll bar/cage since it had 375K on it. Nope. You DO NOT HAVE TO wear a helmet in a car with a roll cage.
But a roll cage has structural function as well as crash protection. If you're going to install a +6 beam and 3x3 rear arms, then a cage is needed to support that wider suspension and mount the shocks. a +6 beam mounted to a stock frame head without tubular structure to support the outer ends is weaker and far more easily bent than a stock beam in a stock Bug. Even if the +6 beam is made of 4130 chrome moly tubing. And the longer wider suspension applies much more leverage and force to the body structure than VW designed it for.
You do not have to install coil over shocks to install 3x3 rear arms, that buggy of my friend that you see me in above has 5x6 rear arms with Rancho dual tube shocks and torsion bars. Works great without coilovers.
Now, let's talk about the concept of RGBs at the rear. I approve of RGBs in a swing axle Baja Bug. But with a "No-Hop" kit applied to the installation.
But you're talking about IRS and 3x3s too. It's possible to install RGBs on an IRS setup. It HAS been done. I've even seen it here on the Samba. But it takes a lot of machining and fabricating to achieve it, even if you are using the rare (and only ever available in certain parts of the world at that) Bus IRS with RGBs. One fellow in the US and on here actually HAS a set of those RGBs. One COULD cut the outer end of the RGB swingaxle and weld a CV flange to it, then mount the RGB to the end of a custom fabricated IRS arm. I would STILL attach the RGB to the arm so it can pivot on the upper axle axis, and have a link rod below like a no-hop for swing axle. But unless one is prepared to do all of that, I suggest deciding whether you want RGBs on a swingaxle or you want IRS. |
Helmet
Thansk for feedback. I think you are forgetting one thing. In the desert their arent as many cars. You are very unlikely to hit anything actually, sure, you might roll the car or aomething else. Then it's great to have a helmet. But if you travel on the road and front something. I would not be too happy to have an extra kilo on my head, my spine would snap. Thats why I dont want to use a helmet. Because the car would more likely spend 99,99 % of the time on the roads. Using a neck restraint makes helmet usage much more realistic. But to be honest, I did not know the English word for it. And, it wont enter the car performing a ritual or belting myself, adding helmet and neck restrainer ever time I wanna go somewhere. Then the care will only rest in my garage and neevr be used, the oposite of what i am targeting.
RGBs
It's not a matter if its complicated on not to use RGBs and IRS. We all know it already, but all of my options are far worse. The following are a fact for me. The engine and transmission will not be beetle, they will be from a car with the engine mounted in the front. So I have some options to make my wheels spin the right direction. Reverse the rotation of the engine, flip the transmission, go for a Subaru engine and buy subagears kit, or to use RGBs. I don't mind fabricating a bit and I have the required parts now. Så thats why I go RGBs and IRS. Swing axle is not an option, it's way to unstable on the road.
Seat belts
Sure I'll use them, a bullet would be far cheaper, but what for..
Last edited by saabmosare on Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5848
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:23 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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I thought you said you wanted to build a Baja Bug.
But apparently not.
| Quote: |
| The engine and transmission will not be beetle, it will be a car with the engine in the front. |
It seems that you want a 4wd front engine SUV that sorta looks like a Baja Bug. People in the US have for decades put VW body shells on 4wd chassis from short wheelbase trucks and SUVs. You had not told us that you were going to entirely discard the VW pan and suspension. But if you don't like the way VW suspension works even though it is the same as what Porsche used VERY successfully for decades, I'm not clear why you are bothering with the VW body shell in the 1st place.
This is a 2wd ford pickup truck chassis shortened and with a Baja Body shell. This is the cover of the Program magazine for the 1972 NORRA Mexican 1000 race.
I think it would be FAR simpler and easier to find the parts to build if you used Mercedes Unimog Portal axle gear boxes.
A Subaru engine, gearbox and rear differential (or almost ANY other drivetrain) will produce forward motion without RGBs or portal axles. WITH portal axles or RGBs, it will drive in reverse. So then you WOULD need SubaGears flipped ring and pinion to make it all work.
Regarding helmets and roll cages. One point that you seem to have entirely overlooked, even though you copied it and included it in your post is the following sentence that I've copied and put up AGAIN.
| Quote: |
| You DO NOT HAVE TO wear a helmet in a car with a roll cage. |
Others had said that if you have a cage then you have to wear a helmet. I was disagreeing with that point that others have based on unreasonable fears. Much like your unreasonable fears that the mass of a helmet added to your head would ensure that your neck would break at any impact. You missed my comment on that point too. But perhaps you have an exceptionally weak neck? I don't know the answer to that.
Whatever...READ that sentence above one more time.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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lelef
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2013
Posts: 215
Location: France
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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I think he want use an engine and gearbox from a front wheel drive (Subaru?) car but in the rear of the Bug and use RGBs to shorter ratios and reverse rotation.
I own also a Unimog 404, Unimog portal boxes aren't reverse rotation they are very big and very heavy.
saabmosare is a young boy and seems to me that he's working hard on his project, isn't easy living in Europe to see a real Baja Bug and understand how things have to be made.
The book 'Baja Bugs And Buggies ' from Jeff Hibbard was a great help to me ,to understand a lot of things, before building my Buggy.
Yes you can find all the same infos in the samba forum but reading the book again and again gives you a better idea how to obtain what you want from your project and make you understand also why a lot of people here suggest you to do one thing and not another |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
I thought you said you wanted to build a Baja Bug.
But apparently not.
| Quote: |
| The engine and transmission will not be beetle, it will be a car with the engine in the front. |
It seems that you want a 4wd front engine SUV that sorta looks like a Baja Bug. People in the US have for decades put VW body shells on 4wd chassis from short wheelbase trucks and SUVs. You had not told us that you were going to entirely discard the VW pan and suspension. But if you don't like the way VW suspension works even though it is the same as what Porsche used VERY successfully for decades, I'm not clear why you are bothering with the VW body shell in the 1st place.
This is a 2wd ford pickup truck chassis shortened and with a Baja Body shell. This is the cover of the Program magazine for the 1972 NORRA Mexican 1000 race.
I think it would be FAR simpler and easier to find the parts to build if you used Mercedes Unimog Portal axle gear boxes.
A Subaru engine, gearbox and rear differential (or almost ANY other drivetrain) will produce forward motion without RGBs or portal axles. WITH portal axles or RGBs, it will drive in reverse. So then you WOULD need SubaGears flipped ring and pinion to make it all work.
Regarding helmets and roll cages. One point that you seem to have entirely overlooked, even though you copied it and included it in your post is the following sentence that I've copied and put up AGAIN.
| Quote: |
| You DO NOT HAVE TO wear a helmet in a car with a roll cage. |
Others had said that if you have a cage then you have to wear a helmet. I was disagreeing with that point that others have based on unreasonable fears. Much like your unreasonable fears that the mass of a helmet added to your head would ensure that your neck would break at any impact. You missed my comment on that point too. But perhaps you have an exceptionally weak neck? I don't know the answer to that.
Whatever...READ that sentence above one more time. |
I'm sorry for you that you don't like my project. But the good part is that you can follow another project that suits you instead. You don't have to follow my project, I promise. If you anyway decide to follow my project, I have listed everything important to me in my first post, read it and you will understand my thoughts better. However, I still can't understand why anyone would spend so much time on something they dislike. Find a project you like instead and spent time on that one.
| lelef wrote: |
I think he want use an engine and gearbox from a front wheel drive (Subaru?) car but in the rear of the Bug and use RGBs to shorter ratios and reverse rotation.
I own also a Unimog 404, Unimog portal boxes aren't reverse rotation they are very big and very heavy.
saabmosare is a young boy and seems to me that he's working hard on his project, isn't easy living in Europe to see a real Baja Bug and understand how things have to be made.
The book 'Baja Bugs And Buggies ' from Jeff Hibbard was a great help to me ,to understand a lot of things, before building my Buggy.
Yes you can find all the same infos in the samba forum but reading the book again and again gives you a better idea how to obtain what you want from your project and make you understand also why a lot of people here suggest you to do one thing and not another |
You are correct about the engine and mount. The ratios I actually don't mind, I just get them in the same package. But they even out with larger wheels so the gearbox from an FWD will have suitable ratios on the road anyway. The most important thing is that they reverse the rotation at a very low cost.
"Young Boy", thanks for the labelling.
I'm not building a Baja Bug, I think my closest desert is within 48 hours driving from here. I'm building a Scandinavian Baja Bug as the topic says. But in order to make it street legal here and make it a useful car, there is plenty of changes needed compared to a "real" Baja Bug that most or you races.
But I must say that I don't really feel people on the forum appreciate creating things. I feel people appreciate more shopping parts created by others and bolting them on. Perhaps I should move to another forum?
My link pin front end disassembled prepared for electrolysis and paint. Still havent decided how wide I should go.
First parts in electrolysis. In 12 hours or so I expect them to be rust free again.
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5848
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:22 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| saabmosare wrote: |
| dustymojave wrote: |
I thought you said you wanted to build a Baja Bug.
But apparently not.
| Quote: |
| The engine and transmission will not be beetle, it will be a car with the engine in the front. |
It seems that you want a 4wd front engine SUV that sorta looks like a Baja Bug. People in the US have for decades put VW body shells on 4wd chassis from short wheelbase trucks and SUVs. You had not told us that you were going to entirely discard the VW pan and suspension. But if you don't like the way VW suspension works even though it is the same as what Porsche used VERY successfully for decades, I'm not clear why you are bothering with the VW body shell in the 1st place.
This is a 2wd ford pickup truck chassis shortened and with a Baja Body shell. This is the cover of the Program magazine for the 1972 NORRA Mexican 1000 race.
...
|
I'm sorry for you that you don't like my project. But the good part is that you can follow another project that suits you instead. You don't have to follow my project, I promise. If you anyway decide to follow my project, I have listed everything important to me in my first post, read it and you will understand my thoughts better. However, I still can't understand why anyone would spend so much time on something they dislike. Find a project you like instead and spent time on that one.
| lelef wrote: |
I think he want use an engine and gearbox from a front wheel drive (Subaru?) car but in the rear of the Bug and use RGBs to shorter ratios and reverse rotation.
I own also a Unimog 404, Unimog portal boxes aren't reverse rotation they are very big and very heavy.
saabmosare is a young boy and seems to me that he's working hard on his project, isn't easy living in Europe to see a real Baja Bug and understand how things have to be made.
The book 'Baja Bugs And Buggies ' from Jeff Hibbard was a great help to me ,to understand a lot of things, before building my Buggy.
Yes you can find all the same infos in the samba forum but reading the book again and again gives you a better idea how to obtain what you want from your project and make you understand also why a lot of people here suggest you to do one thing and not another |
You are correct about the engine and mount. The ratios I actually don't mind, I just get them in the same package. But they even out with larger wheels so the gearbox from an FWD will have suitable ratios on the road anyway. The most important thing is that they reverse the rotation at a very low cost.
"Young Boy", thanks for the labelling.
I'm not building a Baja Bug, I think my closest desert is within 48 hours driving from here. I'm building a Scandinavian Baja Bug as the topic says. But in order to make it street legal here and make it a useful car, there is plenty of changes needed compared to a "real" Baja Bug that most or you races.
But I must say that I don't really feel people on the forum appreciate creating things. I feel people appreciate more shopping parts created by others and bolting them on. Perhaps I should move to another forum?
My link pin front end disassembled prepared for electrolysis and paint. Still havent decided how wide I should go.
First parts in electrolysis. In 12 hours or so I expect them to be rust free again.
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I think there is some mis-understanding going on here. I understand that English is not your native language. And whichever Scandinavian language is yours, I KNOW that you are doing a vastly better job of writing in English than I could do in your language. But there are some things not quite coming through. Some parts of the messages have gotten lost.
Thanks to Lelef for trying to translate.
I don't believe I have said that I don't like your project. It has plenty of potential to be a fun car. I HAVE said that I will like to see your car when it is finished. So please do NOT read between the lines of my responses. And it would be better if you did not step on other people's toes when you want to talk to them.
| Quote: |
| I have listed everything important to me in my first post, read it and you will understand my thoughts better. |
After your 1st post, I thought I understood what you want to build. A Baja Bug. Then you say things such as this:
| Quote: |
| The engine and transmission will not be beetle, it will be a car with the engine in the front. |
Maybe if you tried a little different words like:
[quote]The engine and transmission will not be beetle, THEY will be FROM a car with the engine in the front.
Those changes in your words make a HUGE difference in what the sentence means. And what your car will be like when you finish it.
Putting a Subaru engine and trans in the back of a Baja Bug is far different from putting a Baja Bug body on a front engine/rear drive chassis with a Subaru engine in the front.
| Quote: |
| I'm not building a Baja Bug, I think my closest desert is within 48 hours driving from here. I'm building a Scandinavian Baja Bug as the topic says. |
So are you building a Baja Bug or are you NOT building a Baja Bug. Scandinavian, Mexican, American, Australian, Philippine, Spanish, English, or wherever... A Baja Bug is still a Baja Bug. Or it is NOT a Baja Bug.
| Quote: |
| But in order to make it street legal here and make it a useful car, there is plenty of changes needed compared to a "real" Baja Bug that most or you races. |
I understand that some places have rules for cars driven on public roads that make most typical American Baja Bugs not legal for use in those places. But a large percentage of Baja Bugs driven on public roads in the US are not truly "legal" for where they are driven.
One of your options for road legality is to keep your Bug "full body" with wider fenders to cover the bigger tires and wider suspension. Notice the rear fenders on this old Baja race Bug from the 1960s:
That rear fender you see is an original steel fender sliced from bottom front over the top to the bottom rear, then a strip of sheet steel about 3" (75mm) wide welded in. You could do that. Or you could buy fenders made of fiberglass already molded wider than stock from Creative Car Craft in Florida. They have fenders for front and rear.
But a full-body Bug is not a Baja Bug, is it? It might be called a "Class 11 Bug". Or you might find some other name for it. Like Offroad Sedan", as many Bugs that were raced in the Mexican 1000 in the 1960s like the yellow car above were called. Class 11 refers to a category of offroad race car where a VW Bug is required to be mostly as it came from the factory and any modifications from original are limited. There used to be another category for racing sedans that was developed from that sedan category that was called "Class 6". The rules for that class allowed most any brand of car, as long as it was a passenger sedan. They allowed a more modified race car than Class 11 ever has. Eventually, because VW Bugs won most every race in that class, they were banned from the class and Class 11 was created. Still a Bug with offroad suspension and other modifications is still
That brings us around to:
| Quote: |
| But I must say that I don't really feel people on the forum appreciate creating things. I feel people appreciate more shopping parts created by others and bolting them on. Perhaps I should move to another forum? |
Again, you are trying to read words that are not printed out on the screen. From your position in Scandinavia, parts to build Baja Bugs are not readily available. Importing them from the US is very expensive. We understand that. But for many on these forums, such parts ARE readily available and for some, they are even available close to home. So you are judging others from a different point of view. It is like you are telling us which paint is the right color when you are wearing colored sunglasses.
I have spent much of my career fabricating race cars for pavement and offroad, dune buggies, Baja Bugs and trucks 2WD and 4WD for play and for dual purpose offroad/on-road use, Hot Rods, movie sets and special effects, community water storage tanks, pipelines, and building homes and commercial buildings. I am quite capable of fabricating most things to build an offroad car however I want it. But if the parts to do the job are readily available and have been proven to work fine and cost me less to buy than to make...Then why in the world would I make it all myself? Some parts I DEFINITELY will make myself and make them a little different than the parts you can buy. But if I'm building a house, why would I cut down the trees and mill all the boards myself? I don't have to fabricate plumbing pieces either. I CAN make them. But I don't need to.
There is a guy from South America who is building a Baja Bug and doing some amazing work making his own engine adapter plates and all sorts of things, making castings for some parts from scrap melted down in his shop. Like for you, parts for Bajas are not readily available. But he's not criticizing others for finding parts easy to get where they are at. If you want to leave, that's up to you. I only know 1 other place where you could go to get this sort of info. And it isn't going to be much different than here. Some of the same people and they do things pretty much the same as the folks on here. If you make a mistake in your choice of words because you are speaking in a language other than what you normally speak, they are not likely to be more or less understanding than the people on here.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:22 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
Tons of arguments and misunderstandings. |
Noted, I added some more information in my description based on your suggestions. I appreciate your feedback, but I really felt all you did was complaining about my decisions. But as you said, it was not your intention and perhaps something between the lines.
What I am building?
For the sake of the discussion, a car or an offroad vehicle perhaps. Does not have to comply with any SCORE regulations or similar. However, I would not mind if it anyhow allowed me to race in the future. But then it would be far more about participating than racing for me. So yeah, I would still be happy even thou I would finish in the last place.
| dustymojave wrote: |
I have spent much of my career fabricating race cars for pavement and offroad, dune buggies, Baja Bugs and trucks 2WD and 4WD for play and for dual purpose offroad/on-road use, Hot Rods, movie sets and special effects, community water storage tanks, pipelines, and building homes and commercial buildings. I am quite capable of fabricating most things to build an offroad car however I want it. But if the parts to do the job are readily available and have been proven to work fine and cost me less to buy than to make...Then why in the world would I make it all myself? Some parts I DEFINITELY will make myself and make them a little different than the parts you can buy. But if I'm building a house, why would I cut down the trees and mill all the boards myself? I don't have to fabricate plumbing pieces either. I CAN make them. But I don't need to. |
Somewhere you acquired some knowledge before doing all this, right? That's what I am doing here. That's why I want to do most of the parts myself.
| dustymojave wrote: |
One of your options for road legality is to keep your Bug "full body" with wider fenders to cover the bigger tires and wider suspension. Notice the rear fenders on this old Baja race Bug from the 1960s:
That rear fender you see is an original steel fender sliced from bottom front over the top to the bottom rear, then a strip of sheet steel about 3" (75mm) wide welded in. You could do that. Or you could buy fenders made of fiberglass already molded wider than stock from Creative Car Craft in Florida. They have fenders for front and rear.
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This is more the style I am targeting. Adjusted a few centuries forward. |
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lelef
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2013
Posts: 215
Location: France
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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a Baja Bug isn't just for racing in sand desert they was thinked to be good on everything ,mud stones also snow.
Sand rails ,Rock crawlers ,Hill Climb are extreme off road vehicles to do well only one thing.
a Baja Bug is more a general purpose off road good for everything ,excellent in nothing ..but this mix of compromise make it a fantastic off roader with a lot of fun.
So a lot of the info you can find about a Baja Bug should be good also for Scandinavian Baja Bug
I like engines with a lot of HP and Torque but working on a car my personal list of priority is:
Safety
Tyres
Brakes
Suspension
Tyres,brakes,suspension makes a car faster but also adds active safety! after all this things is the engine |
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rodeking
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017
Posts: 375
Location: FL, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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Saabmosare -
Please keep your thread going!
I think a better description for your build might be "expedition bug"
I have a similar build in mind but I will be using aircooled engine and trans. My idea for an expedition bug is greater travel, beefed up pan with 14 ga diamond plate floors, 2x2 or 2x3 body Lift, plated rear arms, maybe 2x3 arms and 4" over beam with 3" lift spindles. Cage for safety tied into beam, larger tires and possibly larger r&p also, roof rack for camping gear, fuel cell in back seat for extended range, extra deep cell battery with inverter with isolation switch and some other goodies. But I want full steel body with widened fenders if necessary.
So similar to class 11 but more suited for extended trips into isolated areas. Engine probably larger bore and stroke but single carb and comp ratio for regular gas.
I think you are looking at a subie mid engine setup? That would be sweet.
What country are you from?
I want to visit norway. |
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jimmyhoffa
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2014
Posts: 1207
Location: St. Louis
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| saabmosare wrote: |
But I must say that I don't really feel people on the forum appreciate creating things. I feel people appreciate more shopping parts created by others and bolting them on. Perhaps I should move to another forum?
|
I would say that is correct. If you looked at all of the users on this forum, most of the people are just bolting purchased parts together and dealing with the problems that happen. When they solve those problems, they are done, and their car works!
However, there are many many people on this forum, and it is more active than some others, so you get many opinions. I actually like that better, even though I am more like you and like to waste my days making things that already exist. Sometimes, people will say I am wasting my time, and I will listen. Sometimes, Richard will convince me I am going to accidentally kill myself, and I will listen to that too.
I built my own trailing arms, built a tubing bender with a friend, built the tools to build a transmission, machined my own full-length dash to hold gauges, designed some simple engine parts, and found really complicated ways to solve problems that the guys in the desert solve with wire and tape. Most of the big projects I did on my car are things I could have bought, sometimes for less than I spent making them. That is boring. If you are building a car to make money, it is different, and some people on the forum here do exactly that, so our ways seem wasteful.
So, I am watching you to see what you can come up with! Along the way, people will stop by and say you're doing things the hard way or the expensive way, which is often also the fun way.
_________________
1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous. |
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no1clyde
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2013
Posts: 365
Location: Elko Nv.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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I too am watching. I also build parts that can be bought but I have some ideas that parts are not made to work with like you do too. When I started my car I did not know what I wanted for sure but in the end I have a VERY GOOD CAR for ME and I hope that is the way your build goes.
Dusty is trying to help you and he does know more than most all of us. I have talked with him on some of my different ideas and after he understands what I doing he has been a good help for me so I think if you can listed to him, even if you don't agree, it may help you some.
We all want you to do this build and we want to watch, but not all will agree with you and will maybe tell you, but in the end it is and will be your car so do as you want to do. Most of us build our Baja's for the desert and now we will watch you build a Baja bug for something different.
Good luck with your build.
Ed |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5848
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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I like Rodeking's name "Expedition Bug".
The term "Baja" is Spanish and translates to English as "lower", as in "Lower California". Baja California is a large place, over 750 miles long, north to south. While much of it is desert, it includes mountains more than 10,000' high (Picacho Del Diablo is 3,096 meters, or 10,157') with over 4,000 kilometers of coastline. There are tall pine forests as well as forests of cactus. The Baja 1000 race has taken place driving through white-out snow storms and a tropical hurricane.
So yes, Rodeking and Lelef, you're right. A Baja Bug is for far more than just driving in the desert.
But then, you can do both, desert and deep snow, in a Baja Bug at the same time.
Me in my Baja Bug in the Mojave Desert in January 1977. About 4' of snow. You should have seen it that night  stuck in drifted snow that was 4' deeper.
The Spring before that snow view. (fuzzy picture, but not practical to go back in time to take another)
Some European VW Bug offroaders.
The name Baja Bug comes from people using modified VW Bugs to explore and play in Baja, as well as race. Many of the early Baja racers also spent a great deal of time in Baja NOT racing. And often in the same Bug or VW-based buggy that they raced. And there have always been far more recreational offroaders in Baja and in the southwestern United States, (including upper California) than racers. There were people in my neighborhood in the early 1960s who had Baja Bugs with no fiberglass on them and they called them Baja Bugs long before that term was used in a magazine. Most had cut away bodywork. But that varied from car to car. Those people used them all over California, Baja, Nevada and Arizona, as I have with mine.
I'll have more to say on this, but life says I need to do some other things right now. So I'll be back.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:30 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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| lelef wrote: |
a Baja Bug isn't just for racing in sand desert they was thinked to be good on everything ,mud stones also snow.
Sand rails ,Rock crawlers ,Hill Climb are extreme off road vehicles to do well only one thing.
a Baja Bug is more a general purpose off road good for everything ,excellent in nothing ..but this mix of compromise make it a fantastic off roader with a lot of fun.
So a lot of the info you can find about a Baja Bug should be good also for Scandinavian Baja Bug
I like engines with a lot of HP and Torque but working on a car my personal list of priority is:
Safety
Tyres
Brakes
Suspension
Tyres,brakes,suspension makes a car faster but also adds active safety! after all this things is the engine |
I actually but most on my effort in torque. I'll show you the power curves of the two engines I'm evaluating. I think you will understand straight away where I wanna go. But you got a point, totally agree with safety.
| rodeking wrote: |
Saabmosare -
Please keep your thread going!
I think a better description for your build might be "expedition bug"
I have a similar build in mind but I will be using aircooled engine and trans. My idea for an expedition bug is greater travel, beefed up pan with 14 ga diamond plate floors, 2x2 or 2x3 body Lift, plated rear arms, maybe 2x3 arms and 4" over beam with 3" lift spindles. Cage for safety tied into beam, larger tires and possibly larger r&p also, roof rack for camping gear, fuel cell in back seat for extended range, extra deep cell battery with inverter with isolation switch and some other goodies. But I want full steel body with widened fenders if necessary.
So similar to class 11 but more suited for extended trips into isolated areas. Engine probably larger bore and stroke but single carb and comp ratio for regular gas.
I think you are looking at a subie mid engine setup? That would be sweet.
What country are you from?
I want to visit norway. |
I'll swop the name asap, thanks. Perhaps it makes more sense to baja people.
Sound like a great build. The reason why I shortlistet those two engines is because while I was younger I always hade the engines with the greatest power. I ended up spen ding most om my time replacing parts. Now I'll pick engines that are reliable instead. 
Actually considered a mid-engine setup several times, would have been by far the easiest way to build the engine setup but legislations stopped me, as long as I keep the tail mounted engine it's less work to get everything street legal here.
I'm a Swede, but Norway got nicer nature and works better, use to be part of Sweden when we was a great Viking war nation..  You should visit Norway, it beautiful!
| jimmyhoffa wrote: |
| saabmosare wrote: |
But I must say that I don't really feel people on the forum appreciate creating things. I feel people appreciate more shopping parts created by others and bolting them on. Perhaps I should move to another forum?
|
I would say that is correct. If you looked at all of the users on this forum, most of the people are just bolting purchased parts together and dealing with the problems that happen. When they solve those problems, they are done, and their car works!
However, there are many many people on this forum, and it is more active than some others, so you get many opinions. I actually like that better, even though I am more like you and like to waste my days making things that already exist. Sometimes, people will say I am wasting my time, and I will listen. Sometimes, Richard will convince me I am going to accidentally kill myself, and I will listen to that too.
I built my own trailing arms, built a tubing bender with a friend, built the tools to build a transmission, machined my own full-length dash to hold gauges, designed some simple engine parts, and found really complicated ways to solve problems that the guys in the desert solve with wire and tape. Most of the big projects I did on my car are things I could have bought, sometimes for less than I spent making them. That is boring. If you are building a car to make money, it is different, and some people on the forum here do exactly that, so our ways seem wasteful.
So, I am watching you to see what you can come up with! Along the way, people will stop by and say you're doing things the hard way or the expensive way, which is often also the fun way. |
Got ya! MAkes sense to do think different when you have different goals in mind. If I were about to charge for my time I would for sure not do it this way.. But sometimes doing it the fundamental way will also give you the knowledge to develop.
| no1clyde wrote: |
I too am watching. I also build parts that can be bought but I have some ideas that parts are not made to work with like you do too. When I started my car I did not know what I wanted for sure but in the end I have a VERY GOOD CAR for ME and I hope that is the way your build goes.
Dusty is trying to help you and he does know more than most all of us. I have talked with him on some of my different ideas and after he understands what I doing he has been a good help for me so I think if you can listed to him, even if you don't agree, it may help you some.
We all want you to do this build and we want to watch, but not all will agree with you and will maybe tell you, but in the end it is and will be your car so do as you want to do. Most of us build our Baja's for the desert and now we will watch you build a Baja bug for something different.
Good luck with your build.
Ed |
Thansk for the reminder.
Perhaps I had a bad day also. We all fall sometime, thats why we learn to stand up again and not to scream from early days. However, sometimes we forget.
| dustymojave wrote: |
I like Rodeking's name "Expedition Bug".
The term "Baja" is Spanish and translates to English as "lower", as in "Lower California". Baja California is a large place, over 750 miles long, north to south. While much of it is desert, it includes mountains more than 10,000' high (Picacho Del Diablo is 3,096 meters, or 10,157') with over 4,000 kilometers of coastline. There are tall pine forests as well as forests of cactus. The Baja 1000 race has taken place driving through white-out snow storms and a tropical hurricane.
So yes, Rodeking and Lelef, you're right. A Baja Bug is for far more than just driving in the desert.
But then, you can do both, desert and deep snow, in a Baja Bug at the same time.
Me in my Baja Bug in the Mojave Desert in January 1977. About 4' of snow. You should have seen it that night stuck in drifted snow that was 4' deeper.
The Spring before that snow view. (fuzzy picture, but not practical to go back in time to take another)
Some European VW Bug offroaders.
The name Baja Bug comes from people using modified VW Bugs to explore and play in Baja, as well as race. Many of the early Baja racers also spent a great deal of time in Baja NOT racing. And often in the same Bug or VW-based buggy that they raced. And there have always been far more recreational offroaders in Baja and in the southwestern United States, (including upper California) than racers. There were people in my neighborhood in the early 1960s who had Baja Bugs with no fiberglass on them and they called them Baja Bugs long before that term was used in a magazine. Most had cut away bodywork. But that varied from car to car. Those people used them all over California, Baja, Nevada and Arizona, as I have with mine.
I'll have more to say on this, but life says I need to do some other things right now. So I'll be back. |
I love this story, made me rethink the name of the topic again. Perhaps "expedition baja bug" cover it all. |
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saabmosare
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2018
Posts: 38
Location: Scandinavia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:39 am Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Baja Bug |
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Time for the pics! 
If I have been cutting rust, hell yeah. Started small and carefully and ended up with going nuts.. Will try to visit the local sheet metal guy and see if I can buy some sheet metal to make my body kind of solid again. Also got my first components from my electrolysis project, works amazing, really! Paid around $10 for everything. So now the bath tub always got one component in it around the clock.
Since its valentines day, I also gave myself a gift. A bit of paint and maintenance and this lathe will run for a lifetime får my usage. Fron West Germany, a part of history by itself.
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5848
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Building a Scandinavian Expedition Bug |
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That lathe looks just like a couple of them that I've used to make a living. I've not worked with CNC, but spent many fine hours working on a manual lathe.
I had another thought after I posted that suggestion for "Expedition Bug". Much better suited to you and what you want to do with your Bug.
How about...
"Viking Bug"
Instead of going on an expedition...you can go viking.
Cutting out and patching rust is no fun. As you build the car, keep in mind where rust might collect and close off places water, mud and other moisture might get in, and/or open drains so moisture can get out.
For an offroad car, I agree that torque and a wide power band is far more important than high horsepower at high RPM.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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