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talonsgrip
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2008
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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I have a 1303 with a stock 1600 engine. It was running fine until I replaced the points and condenser with a Pertronix Ignitor. Then, it wouldn't start.
All was connected right. I checked the timing with a static timing light and the only time the light lit was at the #4 position.
I turned the distributor until the static timing light lit at 7.5 before top dead enter and the rotor at the notch, counter-clockwise until it went out, then clockwise until it just came on again.
No luck. It won't start and backfires. What am I doing wrong???
Thanks
Matthew |
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SilverBlitzkrieg
Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2009
Posts: 24
Location: Ca. Nor Cal
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like the timing is still off.Did you hook the two wires from the pertronix up right?Did you move plug wires around? And lastly is it the right Pertronix unit for your distributor,the unit for the 009 which is most commonly sold will not work in the stock dizzy . |
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Luft kühl
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1178
Location: Allentown, PA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I am sure someone on here will correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe it is possible to do static timing with a pertronix unit.
If you start out with the rotor on #1 cylinder @ TDC and turn the distributor slowly while someone else is cranking the engine, you should be able to get it started. But you will need a regular timing light to get it set correctly. |
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wompninja
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 2158
Location: Salt Lake City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| It's possible to burn out the pertronix unit if you do a static timing. I don't even like leaving my key on because it could burn out. Can you make it start and time it while its running? |
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Luft kühl
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2009
Posts: 1178
Location: Allentown, PA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think you will harm the pertronix unit by having a light bulb connected for static timing, but I suppose anything is possible.
The timing is supposed to be set with the motor running when using the pertronix.
An inexpensive timing light like this one will work just fine, but it will be a bit difficult to see in bright daylight.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3343 |
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wompninja
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 2158
Location: Salt Lake City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not the light hooked to it that harms the unit. If the unit is left in the on position without the distributor spinning around it can burn out. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:07 am Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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| talonsgrip wrote: |
... I checked the timing with a static timing light and the only time the light lit was at the #4 position.
I turned the distributor until the static timing light lit at 7.5 before top dead enter and the rotor at the notch, counter-clockwise until it went out, then clockwise until it just came on again. |
You say that the static timing light only lights when your rotor is pointing to #4... so how are you setting #4 cylinder to 7.5-deg BTDC? The stock pulley marks only apply for #1 and sometimes #3 cylinder.
BTW - It is possible to static time a distributor with a Hall Effect ignition module (Compu-Fire and Pertronix). I do this when I've removed the distributor and I'm trying to start the engine for the first time. But you don't want to leave the ignition ON for long periods of time. Best to do this with jumper wires to a temp 12v source so you don't have to race to the front to turn it off every few seconds.
Also, once you get the engine started, you should re-adjust timing w/ a strobe timing light.
EDIT - I should have offered some suggestions for getting your motor running...
Start by double checking your installation. Make sure positive and negative wires are hooked correctly. If at anytime you hooked them up backwards and turned on the ignition... they are probably "toast".
There was an article on "adjusting" the Pertronix. You might want to give it a try and reduce the gap between the sensor and the magnetic ring. Just make sure they don't touch thru the entire rotation of the distributor.
Check your cap and rotor to make sure there aren't any arc marks or cracks.
Reassemble everything and one by one check the coil wire and then each plug wire to make sure there is a spark as you crank the engine. Hold he end of the wire near a ground (1/8"-1/4") and you should see a spark jump the gap.
Once you get a spark from the #1 plug wire you can static time your distributor near stock (I sometimes shoot for 0-deg = TDC just to get her started). Once started use a strobe timing light to get it correctly. W/o the vacuum hose connected since you have an SVDA.
EDIT2 - If that doesn't work... follow Speedy Jim's guide for "Why Won't it Start"
http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/eng_strt.htm
Good luck!
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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talonsgrip
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: SVDA and Pertronix timing - running and off to the mechanic |
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OK, got it running by trying the key and turning the dizzy until it started and continued to run. It was running on two cylinders! No spark to the driver's side plugs!
I took it to my mechanic 1.5 miles down the road. Yup, it's running on two cylinders. I showed him the old points. They had a burn spot. The valves were tight as well.
Well, it may cost a bit, but it should run well after I get it back. I'm a good parts changer, but not much of a mechanic 
That being said, I'm still trying to learn to fix it myself. Thank God for The Samba  and good mechanics. |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16796
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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Get a couple good manuals. They will help immensely. I use Bently, Haynes and the idiots Guide. Samba is an incredible resource, but using a manual when working on the car as well as just crusing through one occasionally, can really help you understand things a lot better.
Your issue was that the timing changes a bit with the Pertronix. By now, you probably have fouled out a couple of the plugs, which is why its running on 2 cylinders or you have wires crossed.
Good luck and happy reading!
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone 1914. Ex wifes car.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Ex-wifes car.
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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talonsgrip
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:10 pm Post subject: SVDA and Pertronix - Update |
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Well, I just got the '73 SB back from the mechanic and I'm quite confused. He told me that there was no spark on the driver's side and that he couldn't get enough power from the SVDA dizzy/Pertronix Ignitor.
So, he put a new 009 distributor with points and condensor back in and suggested I return the dizzy and Pertronix as unwanted items. Oy vay!
The bug runs great now. I'm still confused as to why they didn't work. The dizzy is about 3 months old and the Pertronix was brand new. |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16796
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: |
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The only thing that makes sense is that you installed the Pertronix wrong (hard to do that though), it was defective or you fried it (wiring it backward even for a second will kill it - also if you were doing the static timing thing and kept it energized to long, you can fry it).
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone 1914. Ex wifes car.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Ex-wifes car.
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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talonsgrip
Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2008
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: SVDA and Pertronix |
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I made sure that I didn't wire it backwards and that it was installed correctly.
When attempting to static time it, I left the ignition on for no longer than a minute each time I tried it. Perhaps that was long enough??
Well, on the bright side the car runs great - better than it has since I bought it last fall. The odd part is that there's no 009/34 PICT-3 flat spot. None at all.
At this point, I'm not going to mess with a good thing. Thanks all! |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16796
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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I have done the static timing thing as well and left the key on longer than I should and have yet to fry a Pertronix (have racked up at least 10,000 miles between the 2 cars that I have them on). I don't think that they are as touchy as a lot of folks say, but that's just my opinion. Was trying to help you figure out what happened.
But whatever magic your buddy did to it, don't mess with it - accept that the combo works and drive the hell out of it
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone 1914. Ex wifes car.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Ex-wifes car.
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix - Update |
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Glad to hear you got it working !
| talonsgrip wrote: |
| Well, I just got the '73 SB back from the mechanic and I'm quite confused. He told me that there was no spark on the driver's side and that he couldn't get enough power from the SVDA dizzy/Pertronix Ignitor.... |
I've had problems w/ my Compu-Fire electronic points when the voltage in the engine compartment fell below 10v. I think the Compu-Fire stops working below 9v. Do you have a multimeter to check the voltage level of the 12v+ wire you were using to power the Pertronix?
Points and coils will work with voltages as low as 9v. Below that things start to get flakey. Low voltage at the coil means low voltage at the spark plugs. Too low and there's not enough voltage to jump the spark gap in a combustion chamber.
The voltage to my coil #15 terminal was down to as low as 7v+ due to excessive items and old wiring. I worked out a relay system for the engine compartment which is a little involved, but it works great now w/ 12.8v !
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Scorcho
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2012
Posts: 396
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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| with the pertronix distributor, where did you find the rotor was pointing when it was set to TPC at cylinder 1? |
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Meiang
Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2016
Posts: 659
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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| Why would you need to energise the ignition to do a static timing. Just set the ignition to No. 1 cylinder (7.5 Deg BTDC) and adjust the timing to the mark in the distributor body. This should be enough to start the engine, then ajdust the timing to the correct value. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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| Scorcho wrote: |
| with the pertronix distributor, where did you find the rotor was pointing when it was set to TPC at cylinder 1? |
This sounds like a "trick question" 
The answer to the question "where is the rotor pointing on the distributor when the engine is positioned at #1 TDC (end of the compression stroke)?"... the rotor will (ALWAYS) be pointing to the #1 spark plug wire position on the distributor cap.
Here is why... manually rotate the crank CW while you watch the #1 intake valve. When you see the rocker arm press down to OPEN the intake valve you know the #1 cylinder is in the INTAKE stroke. When the #1 valve closes you are at the beginning of the COMPRESSION stroke. Continue to rotate the crank another 180deg or so until the TDC mark lines up with the case split. Your engine is now at #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke. The crank + cam are positioned correctly and the #1 cylinder is waiting for a spark to be sent from the distributor. For that spark to reach the #1 cylinder the #1 plug wire MUST be installed over the tip of the rotor.
To phrase it another way... when the engine is in the #1 TDC position at the end of the compression stroke, the distributor MUST BE configured so it delivers a spark to the #1 spark plug wire. It doesn't matter WHERE the rotor is pointing, if you DON'T place the #1 plug wire over the tip of the rotor you will fail to get the ignition firing correctly.
There is no ONE position around the distributor cap where the #1 plug wire is ALWAYS installed.
Different model distributors have #1 in different spots around the cap. Here are three different ACVW distributors. The yellow circles show where the default #1 plug wire position is around the distributor.
If you tilt your head about 45deg to the right as you look at the pic, all the distributor housings will be resting as they would orient when installed in the engine (vacuum canisters would be towards the rear of the car).
If the drive gear under the distributor is installed incorrectly, the #1 plug wire can be in 1 of 12 different spots around the distributor (12-toothed gear).
If the cog at the bottom of the distributor is installed 180-deg out, the #1 plug wire will also be 180deg out on the cap because the rotor will be pointing in the opposite direction.
The ONLY rule that ALWAYS applies is that when the engine is positioned at #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke YOU (as the mechanic) MUST install the #1 plug wire over the tip of the rotor so the spark is delivered to the #1 spark plug to ignite #1 cylinder.
If you don't like this position, you can adjust it be rotating the distributor drive gear. This will change where the rotor is pointing, but the engine will still be at #1 TDC so the #1 spark plug wire STILL needs to be installed over the new position of the rotor tip so the spark is delivered to the #1 spark plug.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Wed May 22, 2019 10:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 16485
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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| Meiang wrote: |
| Why would you need to energise the ignition to do a static timing. Just set the ignition to No. 1 cylinder (7.5 Deg BTDC) and adjust the timing to the mark in the distributor body. This should be enough to start the engine, then ajdust the timing to the correct value. |
This will not always work. The mark (notch) on the rim of the distributor body is the default location of the #1 plug wire when the distributor is installed correctly. It is not accurate enough to be used as a TDC timing mark. Understand that 7.5deg on the crank represents only 3.75deg of distributor rotation (one rotation of the rotor is two rotations of the crank). That means a 10deg difference of distributor rotation equates to a 20deg different of the timing mark on the crank pulley. That could easily put you too retarded or too advance to get the engine started.
The suggestion of orienting the distributor close and then making adjustments WHILE the engine is cranking is a time honored way of getting engines started. Once started, you use a strobe timing light to accurately set the idle timing.
If you can static timing your ignition, you can usually get within a few deg of the correct ignition timing. Usually good enough for the engine to start after the carb is primed.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Scorcho
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2012
Posts: 396
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix Timing |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Scorcho wrote: |
| with the pertronix distributor, where did you find the rotor was pointing when it was set to TPC at cylinder 1? |
This sounds like a "trick question"
The answer to the question "where is the rotor pointing on the distributor when the engine is positioned at #1 TDC (end of the compression stroke)?"... the rotor will (ALWAYS) be pointing to the #1 spark plug wire position on the distributor cap.
Here is why... manually rotate the crank CW while you watch the #1 intake valve. When you see the rocker arm press down to OPEN the intake valve you know the #1 cylinder is in the INTAKE stroke. When the #1 valve closes you are at the beginning of the COMPRESSION stroke. Continue to rotate the crank another 180deg or so until the TDC mark lines up with the case split. Your engine is now at #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke. The crank + cam are positioned correctly and the #1 cylinder is waiting for a spark to be sent from the distributor. For that spark to reach the #1 cylinder the #1 plug wire MUST be installed over the tip of the rotor.
To phrase it another way... when the engine is in the #1 TDC position at the end of the compression stroke, the distributor MUST BE configured so it delivers a spark to the #1 spark plug wire. It doesn't matter WHERE the rotor is pointing, if you DON'T place the #1 plug wire over the tip of the rotor you will fail to get the ignition firing correctly.
There is no ONE position around the distributor cap where the #1 plug wire is ALWAYS installed.
Different model distributors have #1 in different spots around the cap. Here are three different ACVW distributors. The yellow circles show where the default #1 plug wire position is around the distributor.
If you tilt your head about 45deg to the right as you look at the pic, all the distributor housings will be resting as they would orient when installed in the engine (vacuum canisters would be towards the rear of the car).
If the drive gear under the distributor is installed incorrectly, the #1 plug wire can be in 1 of 12 different spots around the distributor (12-toothed gear).
If the cog at the bottom of the distributor is installed 180-deg out, the #1 plug wire will also be 180deg out on the cap because the rotor will be pointing in the opposite direction.
The ONLY rule that ALWAYS applies is that when the engine is positioned at #1 TDC at the end of the compression stroke YOU (as the mechanic) MUST install the #1 plug wire over the tip of the rotor so the spark is delivered to the #1 spark plug to ignite #1 cylinder.
If you don't like this position, you can adjust it be rotating the distributor drive gear. This will change where the rotor is pointing, but the engine will still be at #1 TDC so the #1 spark plug wire STILL needs to be installed over the new position of the rotor tip so the spark is delivered to the #1 spark plug. |
Thank you so much for all this info!!!
SO here is a picture of my set going on here. I have not rotated the engine since I got the long block and the pulley marks seem to be a bit off..
I was also wondering if it was ok for the distributor to sit with the mark facing directly towards the one cylinder as opposed to how it was before I got the Pertronix Distributor...
My plan is to line up the case with the 7.5 degree mark and go from there. Any more help would be appreciated! Thanks
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/thumbnails/1924998.jpg
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/thumbnails/1924997.jpg
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 7417
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:13 am Post subject: Re: SVDA and Pertronix |
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| talonsgrip wrote: |
Well, on the bright side the car runs great - better than it has since I bought it last fall. The odd part is that there's no 009/34 PICT-3 flat spot. None at all.
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Maybe the 009 had been recurved in the past. Glad to hear you figured it out. Lot's of folks carry a 009 as a spare because of their simplicity.
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