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Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack?
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Jake de Villiers wrote:
"Haul ass?" No.
My '70 Nova with a 4 speed and a 327 would haul ass - my 5000 pound van with 165HP does NOT haul ass!!! Cool


Yes.

And

I had a 1710 lb ‘67 beetle with a 2005cc dual Webers that hauled ass, and I beat 327s regularly in stoplight drags. Such a beatdown that they sometimes would give up before I even got to 2nd gear. VW was king in stoplight drags, a V8 would need slicks to launch like a built VW. In a full 1/4 mile the V8 would likely catch the VW though (not all V8s or all VWs). But in stoplight drags VWs were truly demoralizing. It was kinda fun. Hotrods!

Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack?
With a 165 HP Subaru, a reasonable description would be:

No.
A Subaru 2.5 Outback or Forester car is not generally considered to be an ass-hauler. Doubling the weight and frontal area by hanging a Vanagon on that engine might feel about 1/4 to 1/3 as powerful as the Outback/Forester car, which we might describe as a grocery-getter but probably not a haul-asser.Wink

A ‘67 beetle with an EJ25 would haul ass.

A better way to describe a Vanagon with an EJ25 is “it drives more like a normal car.”
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack?
A better way to describe a Vanagon with an EJ25 is “it drives more like a normal car.”

That's exactly how I describe my van to people who ask about the performance.

"A ‘67 beetle with an EJ25 would haul ass."

THAT would be tons of fun!!! Very Happy

At SIR a few years ago we saw an RSK replica with an EJ25 in it - super trick.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Thank you all for all your knowledge I will make estimates and decide. Im leaning towards the H6 since I went with my mechanic yesterday and saw the VR6 conversion but is too big of a motor. Nothing like the H6 to get that weight that I want to carry in my Vanagon. While I have the 2.5 as a donor motor but it's on the 195k marker so not being able to carry that much weight plus all the parts that the motor will require I think that would be cheaper than getting a new imported H6 engine and harness plus the motor mounts.

Heck who knows after all I stay with my 2.0 ABA carburetor conversion forever Laughing

Thanks again!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

My wife's 2001 Forester did not haul ass. The 2.5l is still top of my list if I ever get around to a swap though.
-d
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

rogertj wrote:
Nothing like the H6 to get that weight that I want to carry in my Vanagon.

If you put in an EJ25 or H6 on that little tranny please understand you now have to be gentle --- not "carry more weight".

When you put in the larger motor you have to still drive it "most of the time" as if it still has 80 HP. Use more power for passing other cars, or to get up to traffic speed - for a short time only. Then for 99% of driving you have to pretend it still has only 80 HP or your transaxle will have a very short life. Like 10,000 miles??? Maybe 30,000 more if it's in VERY GOOD condition.

The Vanagon transaxle has NO CAPACITY for "hauling more weight".

The transaxle is like a candle. The brighter it burns, the shorter its life will be. It's a **thin** candle, built for 80 HP and you are putting 165 (or 230+) hp thru it. It's much too small for even 165 HP.

It is difficult to explain this problem because it has so many facets.
1) Don't romp on 2nd gear
2) Don't drive 75 mph for long periods of time.
3) If you increase the HP you have to "up your maintenance" too. Your bearings only have "so much" to lose,,,, then it's "over". Change your gear oil much more often. Even at 15,000 miles the magnet will be covered with steel, this is your bearings grinding up from the increased HP. And it will grind up even faster if you don't dump that steel out and replace with clean lubricant. You have to change your oil before the magnet is covered, and to **know when that might be**, you have to look = "change it" to find out. Repeat - If you increase the HP you have to "up your maintenance" too. This a "new concept" for Vanagon owners to digest......probably because the Vanagon owners manual says you don't have to change the gear oil at all.
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Eric_Taylor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
rogertj wrote:
Nothing like the H6 to get that weight that I want to carry in my Vanagon.

If you put in an EJ25 or H6 on that little tranny please understand you now have to be gentle --- not "carry more weight".

When you put in the larger motor you have to still drive it "most of the time" as if it still has 80 HP. Use more power for passing other cars, or to get up to traffic speed - for a short time only. Then for 99% of driving you have to pretend it still has only 80 HP or your transaxle will have a very short life. Like 10,000 miles??? Maybe 30,000 more if it's in VERY GOOD condition.

The Vanagon transaxle has NO CAPACITY for "hauling more weight".

The transaxle is like a candle. The brighter it burns, the shorter its life will be. It's a **thin** candle, built for 80 HP and you are putting 165 (or 230+) hp thru it. It's much too small for even 165 HP.

It is difficult to explain this problem because it has so many facets.
1) Don't romp on 2nd gear
2) Don't drive 75 mph for long periods of time.
3) If you increase the HP you have to "up your maintenance" too. Your bearings only have "so much" to lose,,,, then it's "over". Change your gear oil much more often. Even at 15,000 miles the magnet will be covered with steel, this is your bearings grinding up from the increased HP. And it will grind up even faster if you don't dump that steel out and replace with clean lubricant. You have to change your oil before the magnet is covered, and to **know when that might be**, you have to look = "change it" to find out. Repeat - If you increase the HP you have to "up your maintenance" too. This a "new concept" for Vanagon owners to digest......probably because the Vanagon owners manual says you don't have to change the gear oil at all.


This is great. I feel like the tranny is an after thought in most conversion conversations.

I wonder if an EJ22 is the best Subaru choice for overall balance. It's pretty clear that the EJ25 will not haul ass, but it may feel more normal. Will the Ej22 still feel more "normal" or is it such a dog that there is no comparison.

I've read in other threads that the EJ22 and the automatic are a really nice combo. Thoughts? I'm auto, so always curious.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

or swap in a built Automatic to couple that added HP.
add in porsche 944 internals for the extra planetary gear to spread the load 4ways vs 3ways
and an upgraded R&P to get a lower final drive ratio.

the AT can handle more power than the standard.

though fuel economy goes down..

but there's no fuel economy in hauling ass in a vanagon anyways.
a vanagon's MPG barrier is about 55mph. after that it drops exponentially with increased speed.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Lots of good info but bottom line:

If you want to drive fast loaded down then you'll not only need something more than the 2.5L (like your suggested H-6) but more critically need either a Subaru tranny or a beefed up version of stock (talk to a good mechanic about it).
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Eric_Taylor wrote:
I feel like the tranny is an after thought in most conversion conversations.


Yes it is.

Lots and lots of people are running EJ25s because they are so readily available. EJ22 at 130 HP is not as extravagant.

It's not as bad as I make iit sound, but if you over-engine your van, and start out considering your poor little 80 HP transmission, and
--- UP YOUR MAINTENANCE GAME ACCORDINGLY ---

you will get many more miles.

Double the HP suggests something like 4X the transmission maintenance. It's a very small price to pay (in comparison to a rebuild).
Learn how to maintain it.
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E1
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

My Dad had a '69 Shelby GT500 that hauled ass. I hauled lotsa ass in it until he saw me haulin' ass and after that I hauled no ass no more.

At least until my friend-brother Darryl and I took his '87 928 on a 3,000-mile, SW road trip and traded hauling ass to beat each other's top haul. In the end, I hauled highest at 163 mph on US-6 near Warm Springs, Nevada. Tonopah to Denver, 1,050 miles in just a hair over 12 hours.

*That* was hauling ass, though 110 in my last racing kart was perhaps slightly more impressive o' haulage -- or at least it hurt more.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

RE: Tranny

IIRC, Stephan uses a stock tranny in his Lemons race van. Running a 1.8T with about 300hp. What does GW race with?

Granted those are pro shops that can rebuild any time. But maybe the stock design is more robust than people give it credit for. Not that one should flog it mercilessly.
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:19 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Eric_Taylor wrote:

I've read in other threads that the EJ22 and the automatic are a really nice combo. Thoughts? I'm auto, so always curious.

The EJ22 is terrific in combination with the automatic! The first conversion that I drove was a tintop EJ22/Automatic swap by Paul Guzyk: it worked really well.
The second Subaru swap I drove was an EJ25/'87 Westy/4 speed combination and I was hooked.
Gerry's '91 Carat/EJ33/5 speed was a blast, too, but I'm really happy with the combination I'm running now - quick enough to be entertaining and to make traffic easy to deal with.

78,000 miles so far with no regrets.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Quote:
.. maybe the stock design is more robust than people give it credit for. Not that one should flog it mercilessly.


This ^
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

gears wrote:
Quote:
.. maybe the stock design is more robust than people give it credit for. Not that one should flog it mercilessly.


This ^


Yes it is a robust design .... for the most part. The 3rd/4th hub was NOT robust, but was solvable. There are a couple other little details too.

People flogged them mercilessly, with substandard maintenance for 150,000, 200,000 miles and many are still going.

After all that, when the gears have maybe 10% remaining life (perhaps 100,000 miles LOST by non-maintenance), they
    hang a big engine on it,
    study up on specialty oils,
    drive the van 15% faster and heavier,
    thinking specialty oil can lubricate better even after its polluted,
    until the trans gives up the ghost.


Transaxles get thrown under the bus!
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

It's the same, old story of people demanding too much from these rigs.

And using the transaxle as a braking device.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

E1 wrote:
And using the transaxle as a braking device.


In engine braking, all the gears get loaded on their “coast” sides. And the CVs too. Which are virtually “unused” and in “new condition”. Fully ready for another 200k miles (like “bring it on!!!” ) Rolling Eyes The gears don’t mind engine braking.

The bearings however, still feel the braking forces, in a slightly different way though. But yes the braking wear is additive to the bearings.

But in a situation where your brakes could overheat and suffer loss of braking capacity (or complete braking failure) of course it’s safer to brake with the transmission and save on your binders. Such as a long downhill where you’re using the brakes almost continuously. Like some feller with an auto trans has to do. Wink But they can down it to 2nd.

Brakes are much cheaper than transmissions, and all brake parts are available, with multiple suppliers competing. But it takes a pretty good understanding of the two systems to be able to decide which type of braking is going to be “cheaper”.

Here’s a simple one Wink : If your transaxle lubricant is polluted, choose your footbrake. Soon after, use it again to stop at the store for some clean gear oil.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Wasn't referring to engine braking on downhills, but downshifting as standard practice to slow down by increasing revs -- except on steep downhills, of course -- which is hard on everything from clutch and tranny to CVs and all between. Very bad policy.

On steepest descents, I can say I *never* "brake continuously," ever. I let it "freewheel rev" to about 4,800, and apply brakes firmly until I'm at maybe 2,000, then let it freewheel up again... with no traffic behind, naturally. If traffic and I feel the slightest hint of hot pads, I pull over.

When one must downshift, at least match revs -- every single time. The whine of a clutch trying to slow the revs down is akin to mechanical torture.

Totally on board with brakes and pads as cheap ways to slow and stop. If a stoplight is in my immediate future, I tend to just glide on in and use rolling friction in place of either -- at least until needing a little on that middle pedal at the end.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:53 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:


It's not as bad as I make iit sound, but if you over-engine your van, and start out considering your poor little 80 HP transmission, and
--- UP YOUR MAINTENANCE GAME ACCORDINGLY ---

you will get many more miles.

Double the HP suggests something like 4X the transmission maintenance. It's a very small price to pay (in comparison to a rebuild).
Learn how to maintain it.


What is the recommended maintenance to do?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

Rojerti, why have you jumped straight to Subi ?

You cheapest route if money is the concern would be ( since you already have an I-4 Conversion and own probably 85% of the parts needed ) to get an early 1.8T ( AEB or Audi ATW ) pre 99 and use your conversion pieces and slap it on that motor.

150 stock, 170 with Stage I and guaranteed to kill your tranny just as easily as a Subi Smile ... IF you are rough on it ....

It will also require a decent skillset and money but you are already ahead of the game.

Speed cost$.

My biggest obstacle so far are the engine case mounting bars that hook to the Diesel style engine bars. Stock won't fit so you gotta fab something to clear the turbo.
XoooOoooX ( Andrew ) and Mr Gas / others have some great feeds out there and generously offered their time and skill to us to digest.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: Does Subaru 2.5 haul ass with 7 people on board and cargo rack? Reply with quote

plus a very custom intake manifold and iirc re-positioning the alternator.



metropoj wrote:
Rojerti, why have you jumped straight to Subi ?

You cheapest route if money is the concern would be ( since you already have an I-4 Conversion and own probably 85% of the parts needed ) to get an early 1.8T ( AEB or Audi ATW ) pre 99 and use your conversion pieces and slap it on that motor.

150 stock, 170 with Stage I and guaranteed to kill your tranny just as easily as a Subi Smile ... IF you are rough on it ....

It will also require a decent skillset and money but you are already ahead of the game.

Speed cost$.

My biggest obstacle so far are the engine case mounting bars that hook to the Diesel style engine bars. Stock won't fit so you gotta fab something to clear the turbo.
XoooOoooX ( Andrew ) and Mr Gas / others have some great feeds out there and generously offered their time and skill to us to digest.

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