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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3652
Location: Paradise, Ca
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 Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
I didn't have any reason to think my 2332cc was down on power. I have seen what quite a few different engines will do on the long hill behind my house, and this one is one of the more impressive of the 15 or so big strokers and 15-20 smaller engines I have driven up the hill.
I feel if the engine can make more power while requiring less fuel, it is obviously more efficient.
I agree with Torben's comment on rough port texture helping low and midrange torque the most. I have been building my engines different for the last few years now. I focus on highest average torque across the board, and I don't even care what the peak HP number is. I have found engines that make a pile of torque before 4000rpm are usually quicker up the hill, more fun to drive around town, much more pleasant to drive on twisty mountain roads, etc. This is the area I am focused on, and the increased fuel mix far outweighs high RPM heat retention in my mind.
Remember everyone...torque pulls trailers, climbs mountains and wins races....HP sells cars to those who don't know any better. 
Here is a really good article from a very very experienced engine builder who has been building engines longer then most here have been alive. Myself included. The port texture stuff is down toward the bottom, but the whole thing is a good read. He has done real life A-B-A dyno testing more then once on this topic.
https://hotrodenginetech.com/pipemax-creator-larry-meaux-on-race-engine-head-porting/
Jeff, while your heads are off can you measure a few things for me? I would like to compare a few things on your heads with others I have bought or built myself, and run on different engines.
-Intake port centerline. I use a piece of solder with the valve installed. On the long side wall, go from the back of the valve to the intake flange. bend the solder so it conforms nicely to the port wall. Make a mark on the solder. Next do the same thing on the short side port wall. Flatten the solder back out and add the two marked lengths of solder together and divide by 2. This will be the "average" intake port centerline length. You can also do this with pinstripe tape.
-Intake port volume. I like to use washer fluid, and I have a small piece of plexi with a hole to cover the port flange. Just like measuring chambers.
-Intake flow from .250"-.550" @ 28" with the intake on and a radius at the top of the manifold.
Brian |
Brian,
Were you thinking that my engine results produced good horsepower but not good torque? The horsepower for the CC's is not really impressive at 165HP, but the 163 ft pounds of torque at 4300 is awesome, and in the car it pulls extremely hard at 2500 rpms. The Torque of this engine is what I'm so excited about 
More heat in the chamber acts like more compression, which builds torque. Fast airspeed also builds torque. This 2234 has crazy torque, even at 2500 RPM's it feels nuts. Were you thinking I had compromised torque somehow?
On page 1 of this thread you asked for the port volume and cfm, and I gave it to you on page 2, did you need me to do it again for some reason?
72CC intakes,
.200=116 cfm
.300=142 cfm
.400=157 cfm
.500=171 cfm
.600=190 cfm
I could play with the solder and get you those measurements, but that's a little mis-leading in the big picture as the port shape itself will tell you more then the average centerline length. You can get two totally different styles of ports that give you the same number.
One reason I paid a professional headporter to do the major porting was to get the benefit of extensive hand porting in the bowl area. Headflowmasters opened up the intake bowl area as much as possible, but from the flange down is only moderate porting, so from flange to bowl there is some serious venturi effect to promote airspeed. The extent of porting is so much that many of those areas could be thin, and I wanted someone that has done 100's of heads to do that dirty deed. After I received them, I did my own stuff to assist even more.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Brian_e 
Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 4076
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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The intake centerline length is only needed to calculate the average port velocity. I have found this to be a pretty good way to compare different cylinder heads because it takes into account port volume, and airflow both. From my notes and different heads I have built, I have a pretty good idea what numbers are needed to make a good running head.
I missed your flow numbers and volume on the other page.
I am I no way trying to say your engine sucks. I like to see the results of other peoples thinking and different ideas.
I think it would be neat to compare our two engines on one dyno. Kind of similar size, but completely different builds. Although I dont have a dyno, I do have an accurate calibrated flow bench, and two different simulator programs that have been proved to be quite accurate industry wide when based on accurate flow numbers, which I have.
Here are my head specs.
AA500 40x35
65cc intake port volume. Super rough finish. 
.200 101cfm
.300 141cfm
.400 165cfm
.500 180cfm
.550 185cfm
All measured @28" with a ported straight manifold and radius on the inlet.
Here are the torque numbers from EA Pro and Pipemax. Both programs were within a couple ft.lbs of each other for peak numbers.
2000 89ftlbs
2500 130ftlbs
3000 145ftlbs
3500 145ftlbs
4000 153ftlbs
4500 163ftlbs
5000 159ftlbs
5500 145ftlbs
Pretty similar peak at the same RPM.
I am running a 242deg. @ .050" cam, .460" lift, 44IDF's w/ 36mm vents, and 9.3cr.
I see why you like driving your engine. It looks as though they would both be similar to drive, but yet have very different build specs. Mine was built strictly to push a baywindow all over the country. Flat torque curve, no need to rev it, and peak torque just over highway cruising speed.
Like I said, it would be neat to see the two of them on the same dyno. Two different ways to get to a similar outcome.
Brian
_________________
So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok
Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com
Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1624
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
| The exersize was of course to gain power, but what they found, with the porting techiniques and knowledge they had the time, was that it did not improve hp., but it helped the engine to improve fuel mix and torque in the lower to mid rpms. |
This is my understanding, as well. Here's what Pat over at CB Perf had to say on the subject:
| Pat D wrote: |
| We have done some extensive testing with dimpling ports. If the port is big with moderate air speed, dimpling can help pick up a little velocity and 5-6 cfm. If the port has very high port velocity, dimpling can actually hurt the port. We dimpled a Panchito port, air speed increased but it lost almost 10 cfm |
My explanation is that the dimples capture little pockets of turbulent air that behave like lots of little pneumatic "roller bearings", and this not only helps the intake charge flow over the surface of the port, but also helps keep the atomized fuel in suspension (hence the need for smaller jetting, since more of the fuel is actually getting combusted, rather than puddling up and going straight out the exhaust as unburnt hydrocarbons). But I imagine that all those little pockets of turbulence take up space inside the port, so I'm guessing that while they make the port "slipperier", they also make it effectively smaller. The net result would be improved flow at low to mid RPMs, but with diminishing returns as RPMs rise.
And that's just fine with me, since I agree with Brian that a street driven car is more fun to drive when it makes steady power in the lower to middle RPM range, and 163 lb/ft at 4300 RPM sounds like a lot of fun!
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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HotStreetVw
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2004
Posts: 871
Location: Wild West
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
Remember everyone...torque pulls trailers, climbs mountains and wins races....HP sells cars to those who don't know any better.
Brian |
A engine with more HP will ALWAYS make more torque through the use of gears.
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4inBhore
50 Split - 2724cc NA. Haltech injected
62 Notchback - 2542cc Turbo WIP |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1328
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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I think it would be neat to compare our two engines on one dyno. Kind of similar size, but completely different builds. Although I dont have a dyno, I do have an accurate calibrated flow bench, and two different simulator programs that have been proved to be quite accurate industry wide when based on accurate flow numbers, which I have.
A friend and I have done just this , same same but different . his motor built for his panel bus . 4.040"x78mm ,
46mm and 38mm valves ,
hydraulic cam 235 @ 0.050 , pauter 1.48 rockers . 10.8 comp
48 IDF's 40mm vents
1 5/8 primary header , 2.5 inch exhaust .
my Ghia 4.055(103mm) X78
47mm and 40mm valves
265 @ .050 cam with stock 1.3 rockers . 10.5 comp .
48 DRLA's 42mm vents
Stepped Header 1 5/8 to 1 7/8 , 2.5 inch exhaust
Both have done our own porting and stayed conservative in CSA( you can take it out but you can't easily put it back ) . Both engines produce almost the same HP within 2WHP ( same gearing, 091 boxes) on back to back runs on the same Dynos. But the engines are totally different in how they put that power out . The Bus engine is a torque monster that doesn't rev over 6000 but pulls from just off idle and the Ghia engine is happy to stooge around below 3000 but comes alive over 3000 and holds power to 7000.
The bus engine is getting 1 3/4 primaries soon to see if it helps continue the power for further and I'm planning on going injection with 50mm ITB's in the future to see if that picks up the power at bit . (173WHP on a happy dyno) .
I was always under the impression that a 80 grit rough port was good and a polished chamber and exhaust port are good to slow down carbon built up and hot spots that can promote pinging .
What I want for Christmas , a flow bench and engine dyno |
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KROC
Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2006
Posts: 364
Location: Vancouver B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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This is my understanding, as well. Here's what Pat over at CB Perf had to say on the subject:
| Pat D wrote: |
| We have done some extensive testing with dimpling ports. If the port is big with moderate air speed, dimpling can help pick up a little velocity and 5-6 cfm. If the port has very high port velocity, dimpling can actually hurt the port. We dimpled a Panchito port, air speed increased but it lost almost 10 cfm |
There has to be more to this statement perhaps not measuring in the same spot or something, something was not right.
With a cross section area being equal in size if the CFM goes down your port velocity will also go down. if your CFM goes up so will the velocity.
Here is the formula.
Port Velocity = CFM x. 2.4 / Cross sectional area.
example
256 fpm = 160 x 2.4 / 1.5” ( I used 1.5 square inch as example )
Now less 10 cfm.
240 fpm = 150 x 2.4 / 1.5”
I like to dimple up from the seat to about 1” up into the port. 40 grit for the rest of it. Usually only do this on my own or close friends, some customers would complain that its not smooth. 😉 |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27719
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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I think Pat's going by velocity probe. He confused me the same way with the exhaust ports. How can enlarging the gasket area make the airspeed higher? well, enlarging the gasket size probably would increase velocity in the middle of the port...so, ok  Although I'd rather he left them small so I can decide what size to make it.
I tried polished VS blasted pistons 10 years ago.
Indeed a rough surface finish seems to have greater resistance to knock, and tolerates leaner jetting. In a steady state condition there may not be any gain, maybe it's not for trucks, but HIGH powered vehicle far from steady state.
Honda was using as-cast piston tops clear back in the 80's.
Not that that proves anything, but just always amazed how well the Honda engineers had their priorities TUNED-in, they knew what was effective, and rarely wasted any effort on things that where not.
While many other engines you can see they FOCUSED on one area and neglected another. The squeaky wheel getting the grease probably, while Honda was just a well oiled machine.
But, some of these things are hard to set back to back, because one thing lets you do another which lets you do another and THAT's the gain. Can't see the advantage right away. Like you would not see the gain using a steeper top angle on the valve seat unless you use more duration, or won't see the advantage of a STRAIGHT exhaust port unless you design a step header. So on, so forth. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23947
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| I can see what pat was saying, as the dimpling creates a "eddy" effectivly making the port smaller even though it is bigger. I wood think if you ahd enough time and testing equip you could figure where to dimple and get the flow direction you want somewhat.....and a lot of wasted tyme. dimples are not a "rough serface" it's just dimpled. |
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fivelugshortaxle
Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 4263
Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 (With Dyno Video) |
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| sled wrote: |
just curious, and for the sake of discussion, what are your thoughts on polished versus rough surfaces for air flow and mixture quality. Its evident you prefer the polished, but why?
lots of interesting info out there about rough surfaces being better for an intake tract...
some heads and manifolds I just had hand worked have a rough burr treatment all the way through, curious to see how they tune. |
Yep.
Rough surfaces increase flow. The air fuel mix won't "stick" to a rough surface. Racing yachts used to be all about super smooth for speed. They now all have rough hills for speed.....somebody spent the money and did a lot of research. Fastest shark in the ocean...the Mako...has very rough skin. What they found in the research is that the water and air bubbles "stick" to the smooth surface creating drag.
_________________
Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3652
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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Just to update this thread with some 1/4 mile runs with this engine, even with no-no's like polished intake runners, polished chambers, poor I/E ratio in non-race MOFOCO heads, still managed a 13.0 @102mph on street tires in a regular street driven bug.
At the 1,000ft mark the little holley clicker fuel pump, and the stock fuel line cant keep up, and the engine is starving of fuel like clockwork each run for the last 200-320ft of track. One run was 13.2@97mph when it struggled the worst. Once in 4th gear, the longest stretch with no more gear changes and high rpms's runs the bowls low and the engine stops pulling. The trans has a weddle 3rd and 4th that are close, and this doesn't help, as the gearing was set up for high strung 7k+ shifts, not 6k shifts. This engine has so much torque, it would like a normal 3rd/4th much better. Never the less, a larger fuel pump and larger fuel line I could at least finish the full 1/4 mile and get 12.85's as is.
Video of runs with this engine here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRQBmgKknY
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3668
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| The tw 92’s or the 94’s. Impressive trap speed. |
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Bad bug
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2006
Posts: 1160
Location: Jamaica
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Just to update this thread with some 1/4 mile runs with this engine, even with no-no's like polished intake runners, polished chambers, poor I/E ratio in non-race MOFOCO heads, still managed a 13.0 @102mph on street tires in a regular street driven bug.
At the 1,000ft mark the little holley clicker fuel pump, and the stock fuel line cant keep up, and the engine is starving of fuel like clockwork each run for the last 200-320ft of track. One run was 13.2@97mph when it struggled the worst. Once in 4th gear, the longest stretch with no more gear changes and high rpms's runs the bowls low and the engine stops pulling. The trans has a weddle 3rd and 4th that are close, and this doesn't help, as the gearing was set up for high strung 7k+ shifts, not 6k shifts. This engine has so much torque, it would like a normal 3rd/4th much better. Never the less, a larger fuel pump and larger fuel line I could at least finish the full 1/4 mile and get 12.85's as is.
Video of runs with this engine here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRQBmgKknY |
I like your gear ratios. |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1328
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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Great results , try just upgrading to an 8mm fuel line first . I haven't run on a 1/4 but have no issues on the 1/8 with my 2.6 type 4 with 48mm tri jet dells .
I just use a facet clacker 4psi pump with no regulator .
I love it when someone takes the time to put together a great combination from parts under the bench , spends the time on the details and then does similar or better times than someone that has spent a lot but hasn't done or understand the little things . Well done . |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3652
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:25 pm Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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Dan, Thank you. Hopefully I can get a few more mph with some fuel system upgrades.
Badbug, the close 3rd is helpful but man, the close 4th is killing me.
Wreck, you bring up a interesting point. Would be interesting to upgrade the line first, and see if that fixes it. The only frustrating thing is, I wont find out till I hit 88mph and see if I go back in time or not.
You captured the essence of why I post the details, and dyno, flow bench, and track times. carefully chosen parts, and work, rather then lots of many can give great results. You did the same thing with your type 4.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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Bad bug
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2006
Posts: 1160
Location: Jamaica
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| Badbug, the close 3rd is helpful but man, the close 4th is killing me. |
Reason i saw i like it is because i want to do a 5 speed bus to bu gearbox and from what i am hearing that engine with that much torque sounds good on those gears. The compression ratio on my engine is 9.5 : 1 with a webcam 86b and the new panchitos with 48mm DRLA trijet dells.
I need to keep my fan speed up to ensure i am getting max cooling. |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3652
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Unusual Sweep the Floor 2234 Build (With Dyno Video) |
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| Bad bug wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| Badbug, the close 3rd is helpful but man, the close 4th is killing me. |
Reason i saw i like it is because i want to do a 5 speed bus to bu gearbox and from what i am hearing that engine with that much torque sounds good on those gears. The compression ratio on my engine is 9.5 : 1 with a webcam 86b and the new panchitos with 48mm DRLA trijet dells.
I need to keep my fan speed up to ensure i am getting max cooling. |
You have a interesting project! That should be fun!
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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