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Syncro Front CV bolt question
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:13 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:
Is the front inner CV joint is thicker? Or why VW used standard M8x50 allen bolts instead of the rear M8x48 XZN?

There is a spacer between the CV and the drive flange necessitating longer bolts.
http://t3technique.com/new-stuff/syncro-front-cv-spacer.html
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designer
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

I thought about and used a little heat. My torch wasnít working as finely as it needed to and I didnít want to compromise the boot.

Actually only burned two. But still.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

Propane isn't gonna help, it's not nearly hot enough to alter the fit of steel parts, and can't put heat into anything but small aluminum parts fast enough to have much effect. But fantasies die hard.

Seems like most here aren't familiar with a manual impact driver. Cheap little tool that's a wonder for getting stuck fasteners moving. Even you all who mess with cars all the day long but still don't use air tools should at least have one. It overcomes a lot of the weaknesses of a loose-fitting in-hex driver and other poor tool engagements because it drives the tool into the fastener, puts shock down the shank of the screw and twists it all at once. It's really the shock wave going down the shank that gets the threads to disengage.

https://www.amazon.com/manual-impact-driver/s?k=manual+impact+driver

Call it the poor man's air gun.

Places like the inner CV's where you don't have swing room for the hammer, you use a 2-foot extension so you can swing outboard of the vehicle.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:36 pm    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

tencentlife wrote:
Propane isn't gonna help, it's not nearly hot enough to alter the fit of steel parts, and can't put heat into anything but small aluminum parts fast enough to have much effect. But fantasies die hard.

Seems like most here aren't familiar with a manual impact driver. Cheap little tool that's a wonder for getting stuck fasteners moving. Even you all who mess with cars all the day long but still don't use air tools should at least have one. It overcomes a lot of the weaknesses of a loose-fitting in-hex driver and other poor tool engagements because it drives the tool into the fastener, puts shock down the shank of the screw and twists it all at once. It's really the shock wave going down the shank that gets the threads to disengage.

https://www.amazon.com/manual-impact-driver/s?k=manual+impact+driver

Call it the poor man's air gun.

Places like the inner CV's where you don't have swing room for the hammer, you use a 2-foot extension so you can swing outboard of the vehicle.


Amen - I bought mine almost 5 decades ago to pull seized screws/bolt from aluminum motorcycle engines. For phillips head and straight slot screws they work even better than air impact. Indispensable tool IME.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

khughes wrote:
tencentlife wrote:
Propane isn't gonna help, it's not nearly hot enough to alter the fit of steel parts, and can't put heat into anything but small aluminum parts fast enough to have much effect. But fantasies die hard.

Seems like most here aren't familiar with a manual impact driver. Cheap little tool that's a wonder for getting stuck fasteners moving. Even you all who mess with cars all the day long but still don't use air tools should at least have one. It overcomes a lot of the weaknesses of a loose-fitting in-hex driver and other poor tool engagements because it drives the tool into the fastener, puts shock down the shank of the screw and twists it all at once. It's really the shock wave going down the shank that gets the threads to disengage.

https://www.amazon.com/manual-impact-driver/s?k=manual+impact+driver

Call it the poor man's air gun.

Places like the inner CV's where you don't have swing room for the hammer, you use a 2-foot extension so you can swing outboard of the vehicle.


Amen - I bought mine almost 5 decades ago to pull seized screws/bolt from aluminum motorcycle engines. For phillips head and straight slot screws they work even better than air impact. Indispensable tool IME.


I bought two of them years ago for a total price of $7 and gave one to a friend. Mine is still in use, but I long ago lost track of my friend so don't know if he still owns a vehicle that needs high levels of attention any more or not. His name if too common to easily find using an internet search.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:
ZsZ wrote:
The bolts used as CV bolts are DIN standard in size but with an allen head, the multispline/XZN/triple-square driven ones are the special automotive ones.
PO (or mechanic) changed the bolts to the DIN ones. (and forgot the toothed washers)


The vans came equipped from factory with the allen bolts, then replacement parts came with XZN bolts.
The thing is the front inner cv bolts need to be a bit longer than the rear bc of the cv spacer, but most vendors, at least in the US sell the correct length bolt for this application as an allen bolt, like factory, so it`s often (if not always0 still an allen bolt on the front inner. When I see a XZN bolt there in the US, it`s always too short bc they used the rear cv bolts Evil or Very Mad
The washer type name I think is Schnorr Wink


Is the front inner CV joint is thicker? Or why VW used standard M8x50 allen bolts instead of the rear M8x48 XZN?
I can see that the front CV is Vanagon Syncro specific while the rears were already used on the bay windows


Hello!

There is a CV spacer in the front, that`s why the bolt is longer, 55mm I recall.
The XZN probably didn`t exist at the time they designed and produced the T3....
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:

The XZN probably didn`t exist at the time they designed and produced the T3....


I first remember triple square bolts long before the Vanagon was produced. At the time I first ran into them they were available in a 48mm and 50mm length IIRC. I quickly decided they were superior to an allen head, at least once I learned what tool was needed to remove and install them.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:

The XZN probably didn`t exist at the time they designed and produced the T3....


I first remember triple square bolts long before the Vanagon was produced. At the time I first ran into them they were available in a 48mm and 50mm length IIRC. I quickly decided they were superior to an allen head, at least once I learned what tool was needed to remove and install them.


I was trying to find the invention date fr them, it`s very hard. I couldn`t.

I found the 12 star wrench for hexagonal hardware in 1939.
I found the 12 star male hardware in 1967, expired 1985
I found the 12 shouldered male hardware like 930 3/8-24 US cv bolts in 1973.
Must be around that time since XZN`s basically a female version. Interesting. But it wasn`t used by VW til later, probably cost factors at the time. VW is a penny pincher, aka profitable productivity Laughing
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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ZsZ
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:07 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:

Hello!

There is a CV spacer in the front, that`s why the bolt is longer, 55mm I recall.
The XZN probably didn`t exist at the time they designed and produced the T3....


OK, I am not familiar with syncros.

There are 3 partnrs for the rear CV bolt on T3 Transporters on ETKA (oemepc):
113501229C - hex
893407237 - multipoint and
N 91108201 - multipoint

It shows the partnr of the multipoint bolt up to 1973 on Audi 80 and '77 on Golf. However it looks like they also used hex head ones on the T3/Vanagon.
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maalik
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: Syncro Front CV bolt question Reply with quote

Front inner bolts were always M8 hex key. I never found a supplier for M8 triple square in the right length.

On a 16" syncro, the rear bolts were M10 triple square, with XZN10 head from stock. As spare you only get XZN12.
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:

Hello!

There is a CV spacer in the front, that`s why the bolt is longer, 55mm I recall.
The XZN probably didn`t exist at the time they designed and produced the T3....


OK, I am not familiar with syncros.

There are 3 partnrs for the rear CV bolt on T3 Transporters on ETKA (oemepc):
113501229C - hex
893407237 - multipoint and
N 91108201 - multipoint

It shows the partnr of the multipoint bolt up to 1973 on Audi 80 and '77 on Golf. However it looks like they also used hex head ones on the T3/Vanagon.


Be careful with OEMPC, 7zap and the like, they often have mistakes or simplifications you don`t encounter in the real ETKA. Don`t take it for Gospel. Also modifications have been brought up to ETKA over the years, it is not a still image of the 80`s. For example, you will find T4 part numbers that have superceded the T3 part number but listed for T3, the lower rear spring pad is one that comes to mind. Obviously, that wasn`t possible back in the 80`s since the T4 wasn`t out yet, the triple square bolt could very well be one of these example.

I`ve had it in a few occasions, I forgot what it was the other day again, I had a later part number for something blatantly for new vans on an early van but I couldn`t find the correct part number for the year I wanted.
I find the Russian catalogs more precise and most have still the obsolete part numbers, that`s where I often dig out now. Catcar.info is a good one.
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Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Syncro Front CV bolt question Reply with quote

Quote:
I find the Russian catalogs more precise and most have still the obsolete part numbers, that`s where I often dig out now.


I get it now. Your a Russian Asset. Wink
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ZsZ
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:

I find the Russian catalogs more precise and most have still the obsolete part numbers, that`s where I often dig out now. Catcar.info is a good one.

All these online catalogs are russian Smile
I know that these are not really good as they use later database. Oemepc is better than 7zap.
I have a VM on my PC with XP and old ETOS and ETKA installed but I fire it up only when the online info is not available or confusing.
Probably I will do it today Wink

EDIT:
I checked in ETKA 6 it says rear CV bolt is 893 407 237 - bolt, with multi-spline socket head - BM8x48
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:

I find the Russian catalogs more precise and most have still the obsolete part numbers, that`s where I often dig out now. Catcar.info is a good one.

All these online catalogs are russian Smile
I know that these are not really good as they use later database. Oemepc is better than 7zap.
I have a VM on my PC with XP and old ETOS and ETKA installed but I fire it up only when the online info is not available or confusing.
Probably I will do it today Wink

EDIT:
I checked in ETKA 6 it says rear CV bolt is 893 407 237 - bolt, with multi-spline socket head - BM8x48



да здравствует россия Laughing Laughing

I used to have the later ETKA back in France, a friend was working at the parts counter, I loved it!

Yes for the triple square bolt, but they didn`t come from factory like that, it`s a supercession part number, like the T4 example.

Since you love playing with ETKA, could you find the cruise control module part number for the Syncro? I know the part number bc I had to look into my friends van, but it is impossible to find if you don`t already have it, it gives the 2WD part number, so annoying, even on VW Classic Parts it`s wrong!!
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Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget
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ZsZ
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:

Since you love playing with ETKA, could you find the cruise control module part number for the Syncro? I know the part number bc I had to look into my friends van, but it is impossible to find if you don`t already have it, it gives the 2WD part number, so annoying, even on VW Classic Parts it`s wrong!!


ETKA shows the partnr of cruise control module 443 907 305 for syncro (translates to Hella 5GA 004 397-00) and 251 907 305 (translates to Hella 5GA 004 872-01) for 2wd.

It looks like they used an Audi part on the syncro
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

ZsZ wrote:
ALIKA T3 wrote:

Since you love playing with ETKA, could you find the cruise control module part number for the Syncro? I know the part number bc I had to look into my friends van, but it is impossible to find if you don`t already have it, it gives the 2WD part number, so annoying, even on VW Classic Parts it`s wrong!!


ETKA shows the partnr of cruise control module 443 907 305 for syncro (translates to Hella 5GA 004 397-00) and 251 907 305 (translates to Hella 5GA 004 872-01) for 2wd.

It looks like they used an Audi part on the syncro


Correct! Bc the speedometer doesn`t have the same revolutions. I couldn`t find that damn part number anywhere until I asked my friend to look at his. All free catalogs are listing the 2WD module for Syncro, even the Classic parts website lists the 2WD module fits Syncro.
I found one on ebay for cheap. I haven`t tried it yet, I think I have other issues, I retroffited everything onto my M-Tdi...
I`ll prolly temporarily run another 2WD speedo with a VSS on a little motor to not have to drive and trick to think I`m driving while searching for issues....
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Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: CV bolt question Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Try hammering a good 12mm 12 point socket onto the outer rim of the CV bolt.


This^^ is one of the many thousands of reasons of why we have the Samba. I stripped one of the 6mm hex-head bolts this morning and I'd never have thought to do that! This little tip saved me a great deal of time and trouble. Thank you!
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