Author |
Message |
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: Starting Problem |
|
|
In my 25 years with this bus it has always started and run, almost perfectly. And then:
I went up to the garage to work on the bus. Got there, started the bus and went for a short drive to adjust mirrors. Got back and parked the bus outside a short while later I started the engine to drive into the garage. The engine spun and spun and finally fired up and all was well. Parked.
Next time I tried to start I got the same spin, spin, spin and no start. I know it has fuel but I give it a shot of starter juice just to see if it will fire. No.
So for no apparent reason it will not start.
Fuel /Yes
Spark at plugs / no
Spark from coil / no
Power to the coil / yes
Bosch 019 with Pertronix ignition
Bosch Blue coil / Resistance Primary - 3.6 / Secondary 8.6
Using Pertronix plug wires.
Do the Pertronix fire? I'm going up today and check power to the coil. If there is I will attach my test light to the negative side of the coil and have my crank the engine over. If it flashes on and off as the engine turns it tells me the Pertronix is good?
I will also check the resistance from the Ignitor plate and the negative battery terminal (.2 ohms) and a voltage test of (8.0V)
I'll report back. If anyone has any ideas, I all ears.
Thanks,
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
I went up and did three tests:
Do the points or electronic ignition work? I put a test light on the negative terminal of the coil and a good ground. Then I got my wife to turn the engine over. Instead of getting a flashing light I got a steady glow.
This points me in the Pertronix has died direction.
Pertronic suggest testing the resistance from Ignitor plate and battery (-) negative. It should read 0.2 ohms. Mine reads 0.02 ohms also.
Also suggested is a voltage test. Pertronix says they want 8.0v minimum. I tested at 11.8. Well above minimum.
Everything points to a bad Pertronix 1 unit. Any thoughts to consider before I plunk down the $$$ for a new unit?
Thanks again,
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Matt Wilson Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2005 Posts: 2408 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:24 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Maybe the battery is getting weak - my car did this and a jump start would immediately solve it every time. It was just time for a new battery for me. I even had luck using my trickle charger and 'battery reconditioning' setting to revive the old battery and get a few miles out of it. _________________ 1972 Standard Beetle
1969 Baja Beetle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Matt Wilson wrote: |
Maybe the battery is getting weak - my car did this and a jump start would immediately solve it every time. It was just time for a new battery for me. I even had luck using my trickle charger and 'battery reconditioning' setting to revive the old battery and get a few miles out of it. |
Not really applicable here. Dual batteries. Lots of starting power. Spins like top.
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3446 Location: San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
What kind of breather box is that? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
evanfrucht Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2016 Posts: 2180 Location: Laurel Canyon, CA
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
The pickup probably failed, that happens. _________________ 1967 Bug ( the daily rod )
1964 Fury Wagon ( the pavement shredder ) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
chrisflstf wrote: |
What kind of breather box is that? |
I think they are called Evil Energy. They make AN fittings and other stuff. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
YDBD Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2017 Posts: 891 Location: Bavaria, Germany
|
Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
go cheap and try points before buying a new Petronix unit and maybe keep the points. Tossed my Petronix years ago, not reliable and cheap like points. _________________ '56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
dgsaz wrote: |
I went up and did three tests:
Do the points or electronic ignition work? I put a test light on the negative terminal of the coil and a good ground. Then I got my wife to turn the engine over. Instead of getting a flashing light I got a steady glow.
This points me in the Pertronix has died direction.
Pertronic suggest testing the resistance from Ignitor plate and battery (-) negative. It should read 0.2 ohms. Mine reads 0.02 ohms also.
Also suggested is a voltage test. Pertronix says they want 8.0v minimum. I tested at 11.8. Well above minimum.
Everything points to a bad Pertronix 1 unit. Any thoughts to consider before I plunk down the $$$ for a new unit?
Thanks again,
dgsaz |
Another thing I noticed when turning the engine over, no activity on the tach. Not even a little bip, the needle didn't move.
So, similar to the test where I should have got a flashing on my test light (when connected between the + side of the coil, ground and turning the engine
over) I would think I would get a signal to the tach at the same time.
All that said, I don't get any signals from my Pertronix. I'm calling it dead.
Are there any other tests I can run to determine if it's the Pertronix unit or ???
It was running perfectly and had been for for years. Started, short drive, paked,
hard start, moved into garage. Next day, no start.
I'm stumped, to me everything points to the Pertronix. I may order the Pertronix 2 and give that a go.
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9972 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Hey man, I totally feel your pain! I had the same issue, much like yours for about a year. Had me chasing my tail, back and forth, back and forth. I finally decided to check the voltage to the coil, WHILE CRANKING! Finally, it was clear as day! My high torque starter motor (IMI101) was consuming, almost all of the energy the stock battery could put out. Dropping it below the minimum voltage for the Pertronix module to trigger. And even if it could find a way to trigger, the spark produced was really weak. No fighting chance!
I went out and got a better battery. Group 34R if I remember correctly (800cca). The voltage at the coil during cranking does not fall below 11.2 vdc!!! Starts up quickly, EVERYTIME!!!!! _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
chrisflstf Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004 Posts: 3446 Location: San Diego
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Quote: |
My high torque starter motor (IMI101) was consuming, almost all of the energy the stock battery could put out. Dropping it below the minimum voltage for the Pertronix module to trigger |
Thats why I will never run pertronix. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Matt Wilson Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2005 Posts: 2408 Location: Colorado
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
If you don't get enough voltage at the Pertronix, it won't work right. You may have dual batteries, but a few shorts start and stops, may have drawn them down slightly, then, voltage wasn't high enough *while you are cranking the engine* (and anything else on while you are cranking) to activate the Pertronix properly. Saying you have 11.8 volts is different than saying your ignition unit receives sufficient voltage while cranking the starter and foot on the brakes, and radio on and...
But when they do fail, that's it... you just need a new one, or spare points and condenser handy. _________________ 1972 Standard Beetle
1969 Baja Beetle |
|
Back to top |
|
|
modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26790 Location: Colorado Springs
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Sometimes it can be a grounding issue.
The module needs to ground to the distributor plate, plate connects to the distributor body, distributor body grounds to the case....so on.
None of those parts involved are ideal conductors.
While pot metal and magnesium is.... a sketchy conductor... those modules are even more sketchy. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Hey man, I totally feel your pain! I had the same issue, much like yours for about a year. Had me chasing my tail, back and forth, back and forth. I finally decided to check the voltage to the coil, WHILE CRANKING! Finally, it was clear as day! My high torque starter motor (IMI101) was consuming, almost all of the energy the stock battery could put out. Dropping it below the minimum voltage for the Pertronix module to trigger. And even if it could find a way to trigger, the spark produced was really weak. No fighting chance!
I went out and got a better battery. Group 34R if I remember correctly (800cca). The voltage at the coil during cranking does not fall below 11.2 vdc!!! Starts up quickly, EVERYTIME!!!!! |
Pertronix says the voltage test should be 8.0v(minimum) with ignition switch on and 8.0v (minimum) cranking. I confirmed voltage of 11.7 switched. I'll have to haul my reluctant assistant back up to the garage and run the same test cranking. My starter is a fairly new Bosch.
Again, everything had running perfectly. Started up and went for a short drive, returned parked, hard start. The next time I tried to start, nothing. It was like poof, I quit.
dgsz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3819 Location: Georgia
|
Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
I’m running a Pertronix II. Not sure why other than wanting all new parts in my all new build. I bought the kit with distributor and all but with all the negative feedback about the Pertronix distributor made me put the II in my nostalgic chrome 094.
I still have the Pertronix I. It was working fine. If you want it, I’ll send it to you. _________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Igpoe Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2019 Posts: 853 Location: South Boston, VA
|
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
YDBD wrote: |
go cheap and try points before buying a new Petronix unit and maybe keep the points. Tossed my Petronix years ago, not reliable and cheap like points. |
X2 _________________ '73 super. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20382 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
|
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Until we/you know voltage at coil while cranking, its all points to Pertronix has died.... BUT voltage at coil while cranking may be issue.... Need to know value....
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
spencerfvee Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 3071
|
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
dgsaz wrote: |
In my 25 years with this bus it has always started and run, almost perfectly. And then:
I went up to the garage to work on the bus. Got there, started the bus and went for a short drive to adjust mirrors. Got back and parked the bus outside a short while later I started the engine to drive into the garage. The engine spun and spun and finally fired up and all was well. Parked.
Next time I tried to start I got the same spin, spin, spin and no start. I know it has fuel but I give it a shot of starter juice just to see if it will fire. No.
So for no apparent reason it will not start.
Fuel /Yes
Spark at plugs / no
Spark from coil / no
Power to the coil / yes
Bosch 019 with Pertronix ignition
Bosch Blue coil / Resistance Primary - 3.6 / Secondary 8.6
Using Pertronix plug wires.
Do the Pertronix fire? I'm going up today and check power to the coil. If there is I will attach my test light to the negative side of the coil and have my crank the engine over. If it flashes on and off as the engine turns it tells me the Pertronix is good?
I will also check the resistance from the Ignitor plate and the negative battery terminal (.2 ohms) and a voltage test of (8.0V)
I'll report back. If anyone has any ideas, I all ears.
Thanks,
dgsaz |
some people love the pertronix and some hate the pertronix . theres a old saying you get what you pay for . . over the years i have seen more pertronix fail . and leave people broke down on a road . if you must use a pertronix carry a back up dizy with points so you can get home if your pertronis fails just my two cents at the vw shop i used to work at .we had a box full of failed pertronis parts spencerfvee |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dgsaz Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2008 Posts: 579 Location: Phoenix / San Diego
|
Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Starting Problem |
|
|
Dale M. wrote: |
Until we/you know voltage at coil while cranking, its all points to Pertronix has died.... BUT voltage at coil while cranking may be issue.... Need to know value....
Dale |
Yes, I agree. Tomorrow I will go up to the garage and run a test to determine the cranking voltage.
dgsaz |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|