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1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle
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MEETOOHABU
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Hi. New member here. I need help PLEEZZZ!!!! Okay. So, my wife and I bought this 74 VW 412 TYPE 4 because I couldn't talk her into a beetle. That would have been waaay too easy Sad Anyway, I am not comfortable with the rear transaxle having only one bolt holding the whole assembly together. I want to switch to a stub axle set up whereby I have a spindle, nut and cotter pin, which is far safer.
P.S. I have already converted the rear to disc brake.

Can anyone PLEASE tell me which stub axle will work with my CV joints. Or, if perhaps a BMW M3 95-99 set up will work? I saw this on ebay as a complete CV joint assembly pair for $230.00. Maybe Porsche 914 or 930????

I am not experienced with VW in general and nobody that I have encountered knows these cars, specifically.

Also, where the **** is the filler hole for the transaxle itself? I see the drain plug on the bottom, but not the filler plug. The car is an automatic.

Thank You for your much needed help. I hope I phrased my question adequately.
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calvinater
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Mr. Greenwood , you may want to field this one.
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MEETOOHABU
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

There has to be SOMEBODY who is knowledgeable about this. BUELLER??? BUELLER???? If I am to become THEE expert on the 412/ TYPE 4, that is a SAD, SAD commentary for the VW community as a whole - lol!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

MEETOOHABU wrote:
There has to be SOMEBODY who is knowledgeable about this. BUELLER??? BUELLER???? If I am to become THEE expert on the 412/ TYPE 4, that is a SAD, SAD commentary for the VW community as a whole - lol!

Just hang on a bit. Ray Greenwood is very knowledgeable on 411/412 cars.
He might be a bit busy. But they are his passion.

BTW, welcome to the samba.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

There is a 411/412 section. Why not try there?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Apparently he did, and the buggy forum as well, didn't read the posting rules about the same topic in multiple forums I guess.

Slow down and let it soak a while, not everything gets answered instantly.
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MEETOOHABU
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Thank you to all who took the time to read my "message in a bottle" -lol! I will check back tomorrow and see what help I garnered.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Be patient, your car isn't exactly the most common model here, there's answers, but you'll have to wait until those who know them well check in.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

You would have an easier time with a Tatra or a Tucker..

Very (very very) few people are enthusiastic about this particular car.

This one will have to be a labor of love FAR beyond a normal old VW.

Iíd be sure youíre up for this FIRST.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:11 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

I do have one sitting in the hay shed waiting it's turn but fortunately it has a standard transaxle. I am not a fan of automatics... in anything. But that's just me...
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
I do have one sitting in the hay shed waiting it's turn but fortunately it has a standard transaxle. I am not a fan of automatics... in anything. But that's just me...


Oh...trust me...I love the 4 speed as well....but just wait until you try to find parts for it Wink

So......to the original poster:

Your Questions:



Quote:
I am not comfortable with the rear transaxle having only one bolt holding the whole assembly together. I want to switch to a stub axle set up whereby I have a spindle, nut and cotter pin, which is far safer.
P.S. I have already converted the rear to disc brake.


What EXACTLY are you speaking of?

1. Are you speaking of the outer CV joint which attaches with a single long bolt and sealing o-ring to sandwich the stub axle, wheel bearings and outer CV joint hub together?
If so....you will not be able to replace it with anything without also replacing the bearings and machining the entire housing assembly to fit a combination of both a ball bearing and a roller bearing...which are in no way superior to twin roller bearings.

And that large bolt is held in by a LOT of torque...and a steel locking plate. Does yours have the locking plate? If not...yes...its a risk. Put it back in.

In close to a million miles on 411 and 412...I have not had a rear outer CV bolt assembly come loose. Not once. Its just a non-issue.

2. Or....are you speaking of the early inner stub axle on the automatic transmission which has a long 8mm through bolt to a splined nut in teh differential? If so...leave it in and enjoy it. Its far superior in keeping the differential spacer and spider gears adjusted....and no....when properly torqued it will not come loose. Its a tapered shank lapped to fit the bore. It has a lot of surface area.

Quote:
Can anyone PLEASE tell me which stub axle will work with my CV joints. Or, if perhaps a BMW M3 95-99 set up will work? I saw this on ebay as a complete CV joint assembly pair for $230.00. Maybe Porsche 914 or 930????


Nothing useful in either of those. You are imagining problems that simply do not exist on this car....really. Wink


Quote:
Also, where the **** is the filler hole for the transaxle itself? I see the drain plug on the bottom, but not the filler plug. The car is an automatic.


There are two drain plugs.....and two fluids. The differential section has SAE 90 hypoid oil. The Automatic section has Dexron 2 ATF.

In this first diagram from a factory parts book....notice that there is a drain plug circled in the pan. I have heard (but never seen one like this) that a few of the very ate ones had no ATF drain plug. If this is so on yours....remove the pan to drain the fluid.....then tack weld on a flat plate....dril and tap it...and install a drain plug and copper washer. You need to pull the pan anyway to change the ATF filter. Do not damage the one you have until you are sure you can find a new one.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Also note the transmission ATF filler and dip stick tube. It connects on the left hand side of the transmission and comes through a grommet in the sheet metal firewall. The dip stick has a ring on the end.

It has been so long since I owned an automatic 411 or 412...I cannot remember if the dipstick comes through the firewall on the left or right of the engine centerline. Pretty sure its the left and comes through one of these holes (several different sheet metal part numbers...411 and 412, wagon and sedan).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Either way....if you miss it...you are not looking that hard Wink

The differential oil.....has a drain plug on the differential centerline that is a 17mm internal hex...just about right between the output stub axles. There is an identical plug on the right hand (passenger side...if memory serves) of the differential housing just aft of and slightly above the right hand output shaft. This is the filler plug.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Start a thread on your car! Welcome to type 4 world.....the only "PROPER" ACVW Wink Laughing

Tell us whether its a wagon or sedan!
And...show us your rear disc brake mod. I have a rear disc mod that is nearly finished.

Here are two automatic trans filter kits for the 1974 listed for a 1.8L

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=5047149&cc=1368794&pt=8600&jsn=844

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=478822&cc=1368794&pt=8600&jsn=845

There is a third one that is out of stock from Raybestos.

I have heard from type 3 and bus guys that there is a little bit of a fit issue with some aftermarket auto trans filters with the hole in the middle. Let us know what you find.

Ray
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MEETOOHABU
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Wow! Lots of good information. THANK YOU!!! This is a really a good group of people on this forum. VERY impressive with all the help and support!

I was speaking of the outer CV joint with the long bolt sandwiching everything in place...with, yes, A LOT of torque -lol! I'm simply not comfortable with the idea of EVERYTHING connected and ultimately attached by 3/4 of an inch worth of thread. The other concern I have is that, once in place, the rear assembly outer CV joint is very sloppy in that cage. So much so, that the rotor (and tire, when attached) wobbles, unless the brake calipers are applied. Not to mention that the springs and shocks are original and tired! Now, I understand the principle of IRS and tire wear, so forth. Again, for me it is a comfort level thing.

So, after much consideration, I have decided to replace what is there with the 914 set up and coil overs. With some careful planning and execution, I think it will be the best option for me.

BTW, 4-speed is the only way to go! I'm building this car for my Wife. This is what she wants. Mine is a 63 Corvette...with a 4-speed and IRS that I can live with - LOL!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

MEETOOHABU wrote:
Wow! Lots of good information. THANK YOU!!! This is a really a good group of people on this forum. VERY impressive with all the help and support!

I was speaking of the outer CV joint with the long bolt sandwiching everything in place...with, yes, A LOT of torque -lol! I'm simply not comfortable with the idea of EVERYTHING connected and ultimately attached by 3/4 of an inch worth of thread. The other concern I have is that, once in place, the rear assembly outer CV joint is very sloppy in that cage. So much so, that the rotor (and tire, when attached) wobbles, unless the brake calipers are applied. Not to mention that the springs and shocks are original and tired! Now, I understand the principle of IRS and tire wear, so forth. Again, for me it is a comfort level thing.

So, after much consideration, I have decided to replace what is there with the 914 set up and coil overs. With some careful planning and execution, I think it will be the best option for me.

BTW, 4-speed is the only way to go! I'm building this car for my Wife. This is what she wants. Mine is a 63 Corvette...with a 4-speed and IRS that I can live with - LOL!


This should be a long post but no time today. The 914 rear....while similar....its not superior in any way.. its nowhere as stiff and the stock rear 914 calipers suck. Barely adequate.

Also i do not think you yet understand that this is a monocoque construction car. This car has very thin sheet metal and is a front and rear crash cell car that is pre-weakend in specifc spots. Where do you think you will be welding mounting points for the 914 rear suspension and coil overs?

With a very few mods in the rear....very few.....the 411 and 412 sedans can out brake and out handle ....even with moderately more roll after mods.....the stock 914.

If you have slop in the outer end CV hub ....then flat out......you are either missing a bearing, missing a bearing race or missing the inner spacer tube that keeps the twin roller bearings locked together as a unit with specific preload.

There is "0".....repeat...."0"...... slop in the outer CV hub 411/412 rear hub assembly.

If there is too much slop and nothing is "missing" its because something is flat out put together wrong.....incorrect.

I can tell you where it probably is.

You noted you have disc brakes in the rear. This is interesting.....because there are "0" rear disc brake.....kits..... that have EVER been manufactured for a 411 or 412. So...unless the caliper bracket has been EXTERNALLY welded to the trailing arm.......the ONLY way it can be installed.......using a type 1 or type 3 rear disk brake kit.......is to clamp the caliper bracket between the outer bearing cover and the square face flange on the trailing arm.

Since NONE of the type 1 or 3 rear disc brake kits can be used on the 411 or 412 without machine work and serious mods.....what you get are caliper brackets that are TOO THICK....causing the outer bearing cover......WHICH LOCKS THE OUTER ROLLER BEARING RACE IN PLACE......to allow the bearing race to float.

Yes.....it causes slop....and will destroy the bearings in about 200 miles.

A friendly suggestion......

Set the car up the way its supposed to be.....and quit immediately trying to modify something that is not broken.

You have issues with your car because it was poorly modified by the previous owner....not because the car or its design are defective. Fix that first.

I am all for disc brakes in the rear.....but there is no "bolt on" option. Ray
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

If I'm remembering correctly (and it's been a very long time so maybe I am not), the Mercedes W123 series cars (think 240D, 300D from the '80s) also used the same kind of long bolt to hold the outer CV stack together (if I'm understanding correctly the description of the Type 4 setup).

Frankly if it's good enough for '80s Mercedes it's good enough for me. Those cars were indestructible Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

I have never seen a problem with the outer CV joints and the way they are attached. They donít come apart if properly torqued. Only problems Iíve seen are from worn out CVís that make noise or a worn out wheel bearing. Stick with the stock reliable setup.

Bill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 1974 VW 412 Type 4 Transaxle Reply with quote

Pepperbilly wrote:
I have never seen a problem with the outer CV joints and the way they are attached. They donít come apart if properly torqued. Only problems Iíve seen are from worn out CVís that make noise or a worn out wheel bearing. Stick with the stock reliable setup.

Bill


Yes....especially since the bolt is HUGE....the hug is either cast steel or forged steel...and the bolt is "locked" with a steel plate that resides down in a 10-12mm deep well. Its just not coming loose.

To teh original poster....MEETOOHABU....I owe you (and several others) a call last week was crazy busy. Ray
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