Auto to manual swap snag....

[MarkWard]

I was curious and checked the manual to see if they listed the differences. My all years manual does not show early vs late lengths. But they do list dimension "a" overall length of the shaft to be 547.8mm or 21.567" for both sides. That's a start.

[dubbified]

Thanks for the comments so far.

I'm scratching my head. I cant run these, they are clearly causing a restriction in the rear floating arm's movement.


I was looking at TS thread,
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=735579

I've seen comments like this, and am trying to find the lengths of each,

Comment by Crazyvwvanman,

80-82 used longer axles, along with 83 aircooled

84-92 used shorter axles, along with 83 watercooled including diesel

[dubbified]

ok, I took off the springs, and struts, removed the GW HD 930 shafts..

I measured cup to cup, and flange to flange. This is the supplied drive output cup mounted to the trans, and the axle that is supplied, installed into the rear trailing arm.

The axle steel shaft is 546mm end to end, that's just shy of 20 1/2 for the axle shaft itself.

With the axle on the counter:

Fully Collapsng the bearings onto the shaft from both ends.. measuring from end of one bearing to the other end the opposite bearing, 20 1/2"

Fully extended, from one end of the bearing to the other end of the opposite bearing, 22 1/4.

There is zero movement outside of either. To allow the joint to collapse I laid a roll of duct tape on its side and set the axle vertically on it allowing the race/axle to collapse, and popped the axle shaft down on the counter many times, articulating the opposite joint downward then taking measurements x3.

Taking hard measurements on the van, I lifted the rear trailing arm to bump stop, that's axle to fender 13". (confirming the same measurements within 1/16" per side, almost no deviation)

following suit:

Then, jacked height, which is axle to fender 17 1/2".

Then, Ride height, axle to fender 18 1/2"

Then Droop, axle to fender 22" (max travel of the Fox GW 2wd setup when installed).

-----
On the cup/cup measurements, I measured them and there's plenty of depth in the cups, it the flange itself because you cannot go shorter than the most compressed measurement of the axle, or longer than the axle when extended in length. (so this is why the cup measurement really does not matter)

When the trailing arm is engaging the Bump stop, distance from flange to flange is 20 1/2" (this is the same as the fully compressed joint, not good)

When the trailing arm is at either of the two measurements are the same - Ride height, and while one wheel was Jacked up height lifting the van off the stands, such as if you were to change a tire - flange to flange 20 3/8"

This is a direct issue. The compressed axle is 20 1/2" so the axle must be shorter than the 20 3/8" measurement, and still have about 3/8" play in the axle shaft linear play. So, I'm going to think about how short I need to go.

Letting the axle dangle to Max wheel droop - flange to flange 21 1/2" Max length of the drive axle when extended is 22 1/4 (plenty of room)

At Ride height, and jacked up height sees zero axle linear play, and constitutes binding and will certainly damage my bearings and transmission.

This measuring method confirms that directly.

Now to remedy this... I could try the OEM 540MM axles supposedly for the "later years" of the vanagon.. pickup some cores and ditch the bearings, swap my 930 bearings on the shafts..

or straight go to town and cut a B......

or should I say, have my friendly ex navy machinist cut these.


Any other ideas here?

[MarkWard]

I’d email support at Go Westy. Not for a refund, but to let them know your findings. It’s possible customers are swapping these in and not catching the problem or the supplier to GW has a production problem.

Things like this happen quite often with aftermarket parts for many vehicles. Customers buy the parts and bring them to us to install. Often the parts look cool, but fit like ass. We have to figure out how to make them work. Seller makes the money and we waste time making them usable.

There could also be something else with your van. Rear toe or camber might be out of adjustment if you’ve replaced trailing arm bushings at the same time.

[dubbified]

Thanks Mark,

I've been in contact with Ben from GW, hopefully we can find a solution here.

With the findings that ppl say Shorter axles are for the later models (which I've got a 90) and the longer axles (546) is for earlier years and diesel, seems there is a problem I cannot overlook, and cutting anything on a kit this rich, well.. that's just odd.


It might be helpful if someone has a manual axle on the counter, with german joints, to measure the extended, and collapsed length, flange to flange?

[ALIKA T3]

Driveshaft, axle lengths:

251501203 548mm, 091 transmission and superceded by 251501203G 094 Syncro, 548mm as well.
251501203D, 541mm 091/1+ 094 transmissions 2WD.
251501201G Syncro 16" (28 splines anyway vs 33splines)

251501203A 531mm 090 early (aircooled) Left side
251501203E 522mm 090 Left side
251501204 579mm 090 early (aircooled) Right side
251501204B 570mm 090 Right side

So the difference the engine/transmission location caused on the axle length was 7mm on manual transmissions to 9mm on automatic transmissions.
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

[dubbified]

Thank you Alika!!

This data is very useful! it is an 091/1.

[dubbified]

An update. I think I have an answer for the binding issue I found.

The GW axles have 4 grooves on the axles, two per end. It is sensical to place c clips on both sides of any bearing. Workign on so many industrial machines.. this is likely presetting my brain.

I have all FOUR spiraloc clips on the axles

I spoke to Ben at GW and he reminds me, recheck the instructions.

They are:
Only three spiral lock rings per axle are used to constrain the CV joints.

The transmission side CV joint needs both an inner and an outer lock ring.

The wheel side CV joint only receives a lock ring on the wheel side of the CV.

Extra c-clips boxed with the CV joints can be discarded.


I think where I went wrong, STEP 2 I used all four, because of machined grooves in the axle meant for clips, and receiving so many clips.

Ben says, when that clip is removed/omitted, (WHY THEIR DESIGN USES 3 Spiralocs per AXLE) is:

The axle will be able to plunge in and out of the outboard CV if everything is installed as directed.

Great news. Glad I didn't drive it that way, and this takes the solution into a simple direction, as it seems.

I just had a surgery, can't lay down flat, or exert force for two weeks.. so as the axles are on the counter, bagged, I'll get out there, set them straight by removing a clip per side, marking them appropriately, and that should do it.

I'm always glad for this forum!

Thanks for the help, and views!

[dubbified]

I am adding the Image that Ben shared which depicts the "omission" of 2 out of 8 retaining rings which secure the bearing to the axle shaft.

I asked him if they could update the instructions with the image.

[ALIKA T3]

I'm copying and pasting the last of our private discussion here for the forum to benefit.

[dubbified]

Thanks Alika,

If I had just bought them, sure. I bought them two years ago, so I would not try to tell them they need to refund/return/exchange.

Yes, I feel the points you are laying out, and I even shared the list of axle measurements with them, and didnt get anywhere with that.

My project has seen serious delay because I found out (the wrong way) I was afflicted with HHT/Osler rendu bleeding disorder, which requires cautery to the sinus to stop any bleed, and a subsequent 2 week wait before I can lay flat, or even to exert pressure while laying down.

So, with that, my project has sat each time because I cannot work on it.

Gowesty is not at fault for the delay, I am.

But, I didn't come all this way or invest the $$ not to finish it.

Atleast the sound system works, and Im tinkering on it daily (all upright standing only, no bending over)

[MarkWard]

Been off the grid for a while. The splines of the cv joint and shaft regardless were not intended for a “slip” fit. All movement should be contained to the cv. The splines will likely see wear they were not designed for. Should be fine for quite a while.

[dubbified]

Its concerning to me as well.

I had the same summary feeling.

[ALIKA T3]

[dubbified]

Ok, I've had an email with Lucas from Gw, and he is adamant that the 930 axles are intended to slide on the splines and that is by design of the 930 cv axles where factory axles only bear two clip channels.

To affirm this, I looked up 930 axle assembly, and there are only outer retaining rings to keep the axle from coming out of the bearing, but no grooves on the inside of the bearing.

This is pretty consistent.

Lucas states they have two grooves "added" to keep the drive output flange side of things restrained so the axle shaft does not damage the oil seal, and the outer bearing does float on the splines. I would think they add two clip channels for rebuilding.

Sure I'm always a little skeptical, but, willing to try.

I'm going to pull the clip on one and install them with the springs out, strut out, and lift the a-arms, assuring I see no binding before I make any next decision to cut.

I do, however feel better about a bearing secured with two clips.

[ALIKA T3]

You still want to believe this clip shit is gonna solve your problem? I don't know what you don't want to understand in your AXLES ARE TOO LONG.
This is insanity. Good luck.
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget

[dubbified]

jeesh, it is not my design.

I wanted to understand what they're doing, and why, which is ultimately why I posted today, not to hear flak personally.

Thank you for harping. This is good stuff, and I appreciate it may keep me from potential harm to my ride.

If I must cut, great, I will cut, and I know ppl who can cut these for me.

For the moment, I'm going to remove the clip, put them in while the van is on jackstands, chassis supported, no springs/struts, and see about it.

If there is binding, at either full spring collapse (chassis rubber stub touching the a-arm) ride height, jacked up by floor jack, or full droop.. I'm clearly going to represent that!

I did create a MOCK AXLE SHAFT from 1 1/8" diameter broom handle that was the same 546mm length of the axle shaft (without bearings) same diameter as the axle shaft... I used it in between the axle grease cup, and the drive output shaft cup.

There is --- Plenty of room.

Oh sure, it is certainly too short if the clips keep the bearing from floating, in the respective position where the GKN bearing only deviates a max of 1.5 inches in/outward plunge. I did represent that in prior posts, I measured it all, and clearly listed the contention.

Please, if you doubt it (please be open to new info) go look up the many videos (youtube) how to assemble porsche 930 bearing/drive axle, see there are only two clips for the whole axle, one on each end to keep the bearings from sliding off the axle, freely letting the bearing slide onto the axle shaft without any restraints by inner clips, it seems by design, created to plunge freely on both sides by porsche.

Yes, sure this isnt "meant" for a vanagon, and to that, we agree. This is not a OEM configuration drive axle.

Gowesty's engineers are pretty crafty, Lucas indicates they put clips on both sides of one bearing, and the outside of the other, so it can plunge on one side but not on the transmission drive output cup because there's a sensitive rubber bushing that can't be damaged (good point)

I really think that may be all I need, but I dont know yet, without verifying.

It is not insanity if Porsche designed it that way, I'm willing to listen. For years I've interchanged many VAG sort of parts. Hell there's a jetta engine in my vanagon, audi brakes on my van.

Thanks for good luck.

Thank you for keeping me from wasting time!

There are no hard feelings from me, I'm filled with gratitude that maybe there is some hope.. (not like I can do anything right now 1 week after my surgery)

I'm only reporting what I found, update I received from the manufacturer isnt that the point of this forum?

What I was told:

Regarding the inner CV race not designed to slide on the splines, that is not the case with these 930 parts. Sliding on the splines is perfectly acceptable.

In fact, when we buy these axles—they come with only two grooves total, one at each end—and the axle is free to slide in either direction. We send them out to a machine shop to add the other grooves. Only three grooves need to have snap rings in them, per our instructions.

This is all we run on our vans, and both of our race vans that we run in Baja: only have 6 clips, two on either side of the inboard CV to keep the axle from sliding into toward the oil sealing cup on the transaxle drive flange, and only one on outboard so the inner race can float on the splines. We have tested the crap out of this system—it works!
--


Regards,

Alex

[ALIKA T3]

No ill feelings, I'm just saying axle floating is not right and it won't solve the fact they're too long.
I've seen axles rubbing the stub axle to the point it ended up cutting the cup, very fun!

It might work for GoWesty (at what ride height axle to fender is their rally van running?), with tall springs, it'll never compress as much as a stock spring, etc....

From this thread https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=340

[dubbified]

Thanks again, and I do appreciate these details!

This is very helpful, and I'm curious if I were to swap over to OEM configuration if I'd even have this same issue.

Sadly, my surgery didnt take, and I'm staring disability in the face.. as its taking a turn into winter, making it very tough to work on my van outside.. need to get a thermal body suit or wait for a warmer day.

In the meantime. atleast everything else I can handle is being actioned sitting upright, or standing.

Just got done rewiring my 100AH X2 battery with the inverter/and stereo, amp and 8 gang switches, and a rear 4 gang panel adacent to the bed. I am updating my interior paneling and lighting systems.. enjoying the recently installed Eberspaecher diesel heater.. man I love that thing. Left it on 100 degrees for a day.. and I was suprised to see it really didnt dent the battery much. As it says on the manual it takes .91 gallon of fuel running 24 hours straight.. and the gas guage didnt move. Man that thing rocks.

[dubbified]

Ah.. I've neglected this thread sadly.. but damn I've made progress (pics pending)

I been steadily healing (from surgery) and getting out under the shade tree and airing out the shed.. tooling on the van, getting the FAS kit installed.

I have the FAS KIT installed now, its very pretty.

I need help to clock the turbo as Jon says its important. (good to know, this is my second turbo'd engine)

I did have the ALH engine at 15 degrees using a custom cradle and an automatic before deciding to go manual (just to highlight the project) It was great. I wanted more control thus the 4 speed with lsd/locker.

The engine has a couple tanks of diesel run through a 0 mile ALH build, a kermatdi sourced 1749vb (its the upgraded ALH specific) and the kermatdi oil supply line and the FAS kit drain line.

I was talking to Jon about the need to clock the turbo oil inlet and drain to a Noon/6pm vertical. This is good to know. I did some searching on the internet and was looking for others who did this project, how they clocked the turbo cartridge.

Boggles:

The supply line 90 is straight into the turbo cartridge.. and if I move that up to "noon", it'd be freakishly close to the exhaust housing/manifold..

-I'd think that would cook my oil in the return line adding too much heat.

I'm unsure how to clock this VNT and could use a hand, given the vaccuum servo bracket is mounted to bolt holes on the exhaust housing, if you move the center VNT cartridge up to noon, I'd think this would disturb/alter the pushrod that comes out of that servo housing, which actuates the vnt inside the cartridge, messing with relevant specifications.

Has anyone written a process on this?

I'd hate to think this has not been put on video, or described somehow in another build thread.