Empi master cylinder alternate replacement?

[Lonesome Rider]

I am working on a vw woods buggy/ sand rail. I have been replacing parts and working on her as I get time. I have replaced the brake shoes and internal springs and parts on all 4 wheels. New wheel cylinders on all 4 as well. New solid brake line up to the flex lines that go to the wheel cylinders. The flexible lines are the ones that were on the machine. I have an Empi 3 pedal pedal set which is new. The hydraulic clutch works perfectly. The brakes are another situation.

I’ve bled them many times. Wife helped with that in the usual manner. Pump the pedal a few times then hold. That didn’t work. I’ve tried the slow approach to keep the fluid from foaming up. That didn’t work. I adjusted the shoes so they are tight to the drums and I jacked the rear end up and left it sit a good 24 hours for the air to go to the highest point, rebled them slowly and that didn’t work either. If you pump the pedal the pressure comes up a bit. If you press the pedal slowly it’ll go to the floor. The pedal pressure isn’t consistent at all. I’m thinking that the master cylinder is faulty. I bought the pedal set a long time ago. It’s way past the point of returning anything.

Question is, is there a replacement that will work with that pedal set that isn’t Empi? I’ve read a ton of mixed reviews on here about Empi. I don’t want to get a whole new pedal set. They cost too much to buy twice… has anyone else used this pedal set and replaced one of the master cylinders with a different brand?

When the pedal is pressed fluid does come out of the bleeder screw on all four wheels. It doesn’t seem like when the pedal is pressed that it’s actuating the wheel cylinders. Is there a way to test the master cylinder?

Thanks for any help or advice. I’ve been on here reading for days and trying different t things others have tried with no luck.

[DeathRay64]

I know that Empi has been a mixed bag over the years, but I would like to say that the parts I have purchased lately have ranged from acceptable to excellent. I think they get too much bad press. We should be grateful that such a company still exists... soon they might be the only ones still standing.
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[71StandardReduction]

Have a picture of the master cylinder?

Also, I usually "bench bleed" mine before putting the lines to it.
With typical vw master cylinders, I just mount them on the buggy and bench bleed them there.
Search how to bench bleed a master cylinder if you aren't familiar with the procedure.
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[Lonesome Rider]

I'll research the bench bleed process. I've never done that before. Thanks for the advice!

[Lonesome Rider]

[JWHracing]

Double check that all the fittings are tight and snug. It doesn't take much for one to suck air.

You may need a residual pressure valve. 10psi for drum brakes and 2psi for disc brakes.

Your next issue may be your master cylinder is not big enough for 4 wheel brakes. Your set of pedals is typically intended for a sandrail with rear brakes only. You may have to switch to a dual master cylinder pedal setup or install a larger bore master cylinder.

Any 2 bolt master cylinder should bolt right up. Wilwood, Jamar, Tilton, etc should fit. But i would eliminate the easiest things first before spending the money only to find out you need a dual master cylinder.
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65 Baja - Class 5 Unlimited Race Car

2021 STORR Pro Air Cooled Buggy Champion
2019 AZOP Unlimited Buggy Champion
2017 SADR 1300 Class Champion
2016 AZOP Limited Buggy Champion

Currently "retired" from racing

[Lonesome Rider]

I can probably just disconnect the flexible line off the MC and use that instead of buying a kit or fittings and tubing.

[Lonesome Rider]

Ok, I'll look into that. It's a 3/4 inch bore. I didn't know that about sandrails and the pedal setup I have. Thank you.

[JWHracing]

Your master cylinder could possibly need a rebuild if it has been sitting for a while. It's just rubber o-rings. A rebuild kit is fairly cheap.

EMPI # 16-2546
_________________
65 Baja - Class 5 Unlimited Race Car

2021 STORR Pro Air Cooled Buggy Champion
2019 AZOP Unlimited Buggy Champion
2017 SADR 1300 Class Champion
2016 AZOP Limited Buggy Champion

Currently "retired" from racing

[Lonesome Rider]

I feel like I need to take that MC off the pedal set and take it apart. Maybe the rubber ring in that one has a defect. If it seems good I’ll try bench bleeding it before reinstalling it. Thanks for the ideas! Much appreciated!

[liquidrush]

You'll definitely need to bench bleed that master cylinder, especially if you haven't done it. Go to Amazon and get the dorman kit #13911. If you don't know how to do it there's a lot of you tube videos on the process. As far as final bleeding I highly recommend the CMOOD pneumatic brake bleeder again from Amazon. It's 25 bucks and it works fast and super easy. It does require air to make it work. I never had much luck with the pressure bleeders because they never seem to seal on the master cylinder. As far as taking it apart, they don't have traditional o rings, they have seals that can be tricky to reinstall if you've never done it before. Plus, it's very important to keep the parts in order as you remove them. All of the seals I've seen on vw master cylinders that I have used have been 3/4" or 7/8" diameter. They used to be quite common at the auto parts store but not so much anymore. I wouldn't try to get them (if you need them) at AutoZone, I'd try a Napa first. Don't be afraid to ask questions here, everyone is here to help.

[Lonesome Rider]

Ok, well I figured it out in a round about way. Just went out to the workshop to play around for a bit. I thought I’d take the MC and mess with it. I took off the cap and got out a flashlight to look into the reservoir. I pushed the pedal and I could see a few little bubbles come up. Then I wiggled the flex line off the MC and some more came up in the reservoir. I pumped the pedal a few times without disconnecting anything and more bubbles came up.

Every time I filled the MC while trying to bleed the system the other day I would put the cap back on. This time I didn’t and I have a rock solid pedal so far after 1 time around bleeding each wheel. I wonder if bleeding it with the cap on created some kind of back pressure not letting the air come up in the rez?

I had 1 connection that had the tiniest amount of fluid on it so I cranked that a little tighter as well. Didn’t seem to leak at all while pumping the brakes. It could’ve had some fluid drip on it from me messing around right next to it. Either way seems like their functioning now. Thanks for the input!

Just bought a new timing light cuz my super old craftsman shit the bed. Timing is the next part before I taker for a ride I’m the yard. Getting excited to see this project in action!

[JWHracing]

Glad you got it figured out. That semi-loose fitting could have been the culprit. It really doesn't take much.

I always bleed my brakes with the caps off, if you're flushing enough fluid out you're going to need to top them off anyways.
_________________
65 Baja - Class 5 Unlimited Race Car

2021 STORR Pro Air Cooled Buggy Champion
2019 AZOP Unlimited Buggy Champion
2017 SADR 1300 Class Champion
2016 AZOP Limited Buggy Champion

Currently "retired" from racing