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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Issaquah, WA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:21 pm Post subject: Slick New Cast Alu Oil Sump from Smallcar (For Subaru conv) |
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Just noticed that Smallcar has developed a proper purpose-made oil sump for Subaru conversions. Take a look:
http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29943
Part by part the Subaru conversion keeps getting closer to the quality of a factory made installation.
David
Last edited by D Clymer on Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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240Gordy
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Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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now if only they would make something like that for the 1.9L, so you could have a nice big pot of cool oil to draw from.
Aren't the Bostig guys supposed to be working on a dry sump system for the Zetegon?
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VisPacem
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Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Slick New Cast Alu Oil Sump from Smallcar (For Subaru co |
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Hi
Very nice part indeed. But, do we really need to spend the bucks on this. One, cast aluminum is not as flexible as the steel/iron of the OEM pan. Probably more prone to cracking under impact. Then, how much do we really gain in oil temperature, specially if you have already installed an oil cooler which is where I would spend the money instead...I did.
Then, I am going on 3 years + with the Subaru OEM pan and never had a problem. I even use an oil filter that is longer than the miserable microscopic Subaru oil filter which is barely the size of a motorcycle oil filter.
But I must say it does look good.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Slick New Cast Alu Oil Sump from Smallcar (For Subaru co |
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| VisPacem wrote: |
Hi
Very nice part indeed. But, do we really need to spend the bucks on this. One, cast aluminum is not as flexible as the steel/iron of the OEM pan. Probably more prone to cracking under impact. Then, how much do we really gain in oil temperature, specially if you have already installed an oil cooler which is where I would spend the money instead...I did.
Then, I am going on 3 years + with the Subaru OEM pan and never had a problem. I even use an oil filter that is longer than the miserable microscopic Subaru oil filter which is barely the size of a motorcycle oil filter.
But I must say it does look good. |
I strongly agree here, a bented up steel pan won't normally kill an engine or leave you stranded, but a cracked aluminium pan definitely will. Any additional cooling is going to be nominal as well. Great for shows and cruising the strip maybe, but not for use where I drive. |
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Sodo
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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All the heat in your oil comes from the pistons. And some comes from the heads, but they have water jackets.
The boxer engine has hot pistons on BOTH sides of it's oil. The oil has a hard time getting away from the heat (as compared to a vertical engine). A deep oilpan is a good deal for a boxer engine because the oil, for the most part is not in contact with cooled components thus gets rid of its heat in the oilpan. Fins on the oilpan, in the airstream, is a good thing. Capacity, which lengthens the time each oil molecule oil sits in the oil-pan, is a good thing.
I agree about cracking a cast Aluminum pan, I'd worry about that (if no syncro skidplate!). An oilcooler and its fittings and lines increases the level of risk too, trading one risk for another. Without a syncro skidplate, I would choose the oilcooler.
Speaking of cool, it's extremely cool that SmallCar finds the market to develop and produce this trick stuff. I paid a bit of money for the welded-up pan (must've been about $180?) and this new one at $329, to me, is well worth the money, with the pickup and everything, the 5 Qt. capacity and the low pickup center (rather than flat).
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levi
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Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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If I was doing a new conversion, I'd likely want to check this out.
An extra 100 instead of buying someone's modified pan is ok by me.
Not going to pay an extra 300 to switch out though.
Unlikely I'd get into anything nasty enough to bash a shortened pan, so I wouldn't be too worried about cracking it.
With my first one I had an unmodified pan, and I bashed it good, and more than once, when driving in the sticks. I should have taken some photos of that pan.
By the time I was done with that one, the pan still wasn't leaking, and it was wickedly *modified* by the rocks and crap I dragged it across. Muffler too. 
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GeorgeL
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I wonder how they are getting that capacity and still remaining within (I hope) their own engine mounts? |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
| I wonder how they are getting that capacity and still remaining within (I hope) their own engine mounts? |
I was certainly wondering about that. Not much extra room to play with and if the aluminium has any significant thickness there would be even less.
| Sodo wrote: |
| All the heat in your oil comes from the pistons. And some comes from the heads |
A significant part of the heat in the oil comes from the oil pump and journal bearings. Never seen a breakdown or pie chart of where the heat comes from, though it would be interesting to see. While the pistons and head certainly contribute heat they by no means account for anywhere near all of it. |
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Sodo
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| GeorgeL wrote: |
| I wonder how they are getting that capacity and still remaining within (I hope) their own engine mounts? |
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I wondered that too. But if you look at a shortened steel pan, easily 1/2 quart maybe 3/4 is available by squaring off the front angle.
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
| All the heat in your oil comes from the pistons. And some comes from the heads |
A significant part of the heat in the oil comes from the oil pump and journal bearings. Never seen a breakdown or pie chart of where the heat comes from, though it would be interesting to see. While the pistons and head certainly contribute heat they by no means account for anywhere near all of it. |
The pistons are cooled ONLY by the oil. They have fire on the other side. With no cooling, they are the hottest component of the engine (that is in contact with oil). Maybe the exhaust valve stem is hotter,,,, but there's not a lot of contact or oil flow. If you had a pie chart of where the heat comes to the oil, it would surely be 90+% piston heat. Look for the fire, It's near the fire.
I bet the oilpump and bearings account for a small portion. I can't see their contribution being more than ~2 % (?). One piston, for example has more sliding surface than the oilpump or the journal bearings combined and it's not pressurized,,, and there are 3 more pistons.
Enjoying the discussion, but standin' ground! OK will anyone give me 95% (just kidding) I don't really know anything - I'm just a hack! 
But I do think a finned oilpan is a good addition to a boxer engine. A useful exercise would be to measure the oil temp on a good hot day, working it hard, and check first if you NEED more oil cooling. Or just spend that effort buying the thing. But in that case you could check the "after" temp. In fact Smallcar could do this, there might be some worthwhile data to be had.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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Well 100% or nearly so of the oil goes through the main bearings and serves to carry off the heat they generate and much goes through the rod bearing removing heat there as well. What percentage of the oil goes to cooling the pistons, a few percent? 5%-10% I don't know. The amount of oil that ends up in the heads is even smaller, remember we are talking a watercooled engine here so the head temps are going to be close to the water jacket temps. Oil pumps generate a lot of heat just put your hands on a hydraulic hose on a backhoe, that heat all comes from the oil pump. I would GUESS that the pistons account for 10-30% of the heat that gets into the oil and the heads account for another 5-10% but I really have no idea.
One of the reasons for running 5w-20, 5w-30 or 10w-30 in a new car engine is to lower the amount of horsepower being turned into heat by the journal bearings and oil pump, thereby improving gas mileage.
For a turboed engine with piston cooling the percentage of heat coming from the pistons probably goes up put still isn't going to get close to 100%.
As for the cast aluminium pan it looks like the extra volume come from having long attachment bolts go through an enlarged cross section pan, note that there is no flange per se. Also it looks like the increase in surface area caused by adding fins is relatively small, maybe 30%. Looks nice, but it would have to prove its toughness and utility before I would dare run one. I have seen way too many cracked or ripped aluminium oil pans, some of them were even quite well protected by steel skid plates. |
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tencentlife
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| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The pistons are cooled ONLY by the oil. They have fire on the other side. With no cooling, they are the hottest component of the engine (that is in contact with oil). Maybe the exhaust valve stem is hotter,,,, but there's not a lot of contact or oil flow. |
Umm, no. The hottest part of the piston is the crown surface, true. Nearest to that are the ring lands. The rings themselves conduct plenty of the heat from the hottest part of the piston right into the cylinder wall, which being cooled by water presents a steep gradient for conduction. Heat also dissipates down the piston to the skirt, which also slides along the cylinder wall and gives up some of the heat there. A film of oil does serve as a coupler for conduction between skirt and cylinder, but I would bet as much of the calories in that area leave via the cylinder walls and into the coolant as into the oil itself.
You also overlook the massive cooling of the piston by every incoming air charge. Given that this air is far cooler than any other fluid moving within or thru the engine, and that it is exclusively in contact with the hottest part of the piston, the crown, and is hopefully pretty turbulent during this time, I would say this is an even larger absorber of residual heat than the oil carrying some off the backside. That heat prewarms the air charge and is added to the heat of compression to make the fuel charge combustible when the time comes. Compression doesn't even begin until the piston is about a third or more of the way back up the cylinder, so the swirling air and fuel have plenty of time to absorb heat from the piston crown, head and cylinder wall.
Remember also that the oil that is splashed and sprayed at the underside of the piston just escaped from a bearing for the most part, where it picked up a lot of heat. Therefore the gradient of temp from piston-to-oil in that area is much lower than what is present between piston and intake charge and piston and cylinder wall.
Nothing in the engine is even remotely as hot as the head of the exhaust valve. The surface-to-volume ratio of the valve head, and it's exposure to still-burning gasses during both the combustion and exhaust strokes means it has high time exposure to the very hottest gases. Heat has to escape the exhaust valve head thru conduction into the valve seat while it is closed, and wicking up the stem to give up heat to the guide and to be cooled by the wash of oil in the rocker or camshaft chamber. Heat flow up the valve stem is why aircooled engine builders often favor sodium-filled valves to wick that extreme heat away even faster, because the aircooled head presents a lower gradient for conduction to the seat than would be present in a water-cooled head.
So, while oil is an important vehicle for carrying heat off the back of the piston, it is by no means the only way heat escapes.
Also, no matter what else, the bulk of the share of heat produced by combustion that is not converted to kinetic force goes out the tailpipe with the exhaust gases.
Meanwhile, oil being pumped thru the bearing journals provides the lion's share of cooling to that highly stressed area. The oil picks up plenty of heat getting there, too, unless that is offset by active cooling. The amount of heat added to oil from the bearings, and especially from the sliding surfaces of the cam and lifters, account for a large share, if not the bulk, of heat being added to the oil. To see how important that effect is, watch your oil temp while cruising at high rpms but low load. Combustion temps at part throttle are a fraction of what they are under load, yet the oil heats up faster and hotter during steady high rpm use even though engine load is fairly light. Conversely, under high-load, low-rpm use, oil temp hardly increases at all above normal. If you really want to see how hot oil can get, though, try climbing a steep extended grade at high rpms; then you have high bearing rotational speeds, maximum slip-friction on the cam lobes, as well as maximum heat of combustion making for extra-hot pistons. That's where you can really watch OT get out of control.
On the whole I don't think surface contact with the sump provides that substantial a cooling effect; some, but not much, probably fairly unimportant in the entire thermal scheme. The time it spends there, and the surface-to-volume ratio don't support the notion of a great deal of heat being given up there. Fins are nice, every little bit helps, but I doubt all else being equal one would see measurably lower OT's with a finned aluminum sump vs. a plate-steel one. That is one with the fins on the outside; put the fins on the inside to increase the surface-to-volume exposure of the oil and then I think then it could make an important difference.
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Jon_slider
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Here is my shortened Subaru Oil Pan on my Syncro
Notice there is no skidplate coverage for the oil pan on a syncro.
My oil pan has had direct contact and is slightly bent into a dish shape. I looked at the oil pan on another subaru conversion at SDM this year, and it had similar contact and upward bend of the flat bottom.. also fully exposed.
afaik, a Syncro skid plate offers zero protection to the oil pan. I fact, the oil pan is stronger than the skid plate, which is easily bent upward by contact with obstacles, leaving the edge of the oil pan even more exposed..
moral of the story, an aluminum oil pan in a syncro would be more vulnerable than a steel one.
My steel pan holds 4.5 quarts, there is no loss in capacity from stock. |
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GeorgeL
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think that oil cooling is affected much either way. Aluminum is a better heat conductor, but a cast aluminum pan is several times thicker which makes the overall resistance to heat transfer about the same. Fins might make a small difference, but that depends upon keeping fresh air flowing over the entire fin area.
The only way to tell for sure is to instrument inside and outside temperatures and make test runs in similar conditions. |
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Sodo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You also overlook the massive cooling of the piston by every incoming air charge. Given that this air is far cooler than any other fluid moving within or thru the engine, and that it is exclusively in contact with the hottest part of the piston, the crown |
The intake air can't have much capacity to hold heat (compared to the dense oil-fog that is in the crankcase).
Compare the size of the throttle body to the fan inlet on an aircooled motor. Maybe 10% or less? Whatever heat it this air does pick up has to go out the tailpipe - to deduct it from the system. The heat that this air picks up is necessary for the optimum combustion too, as the system is tuned (and thus requires 1/2 the gasoline) when it is up to temp which means that it is optimized for the heat from the piston crowns. Certainly there is a measurable capacity of cooling from that ambient temp air. Statistically that's a hard one to put into a percentage calculation (as an oil cooling contribution) because it remains the same regardless of any other parameter that you might change.
| Quote: |
Oil pumps generate a lot of heat just put your hands on a hydraulic hose on a backhoe, that heat all comes from the oil pump. I would GUESS that the pistons account for 10-30% of the heat that gets into the oil and the heads account for another 5-10% but I really have no idea.
One of the reasons for running 5w-20, 5w-30 or 10w-30 in a new car engine is to lower the amount of horsepower being turned into heat by the journal bearings and oil pump, thereby improving gas mileage. |
How much does gas mileage improve? Maybe a little (~2% by changing oils would be HUGE).
Hydraulic pump on a backhoe gets hot, of course,,,, but that is 1500psi, doing real work (not 40psi running to zero.)
And how many gallons per minute? VW oilpump, pushing all it can thru a pencil sized hole at 40psi is magnitudes different than what yanks the guv'nor on a 115HP backhoe. However I will note that the backhoe hydraulic systems relies on passive cooling in the hoses and sump.
----------oooops this is getting too long. Gotta go quick on 10c those are usually pretty watertight, so I'll have to hit the easy ones!
pistonring-contact area vs piston radiance area (-----> towards zero)
oil used to conduct skirt heat into cylinders (---> this oil is scraped off into the sump after its use as a conductor, then re-newed with another batch for the next stroke). ----> Piston heat going into sump.
Oil-shear from hi-RPM is an oil-heat 'source' too, but all measurements to evaluate the contribution of a finned (+ 10% increased capacity) sump would have to be at a chosen RPM.
The huge inefficiencies of an ICEngine are because there is heat coming off the radiator, off the engine surface, and out the exhaust port. So yes, oil-heat is probably pretty low in this pie-chart. It depends on what components are in your pie-chart.
But being that this thread is about the oilpan and the contributions of the fins plus an extra 1/2 qt of oil capacity, it prettymuch has to stick to everything downside of the pistons. Which are hot, and below them? Another pair of hot pistons.
This seems easily tested, if someone HAS !!!!!!
-----> reliable oiltemp guages
-----> a short pan,
-----> possession of good testmethodology
-----> wants to buy a finned Smallcar pan!
I think I could do all of this the problem but minus the crucial detail of "all at the same time" so all I can do at the moment is jabber about it. Fun though. I bet the finned pan makes a small, but measurable improvement, but unless it is changing the oil situation from overheated -to- proper temp, then it's all moot.
Good picture of the sump SLider! If I had an aluminum one I'd add a skidplate to protect it! Your picture shows that I should protect my steel pan too!
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:41 am Post subject: |
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Why don't you just do the heat calculations for a fluid film bearing. Pretty easy to do right out of a mechanical engineering text. I think you will find that they generate a lot of heat. The shear rate for a 1/10,000 or even a 1/100,000 inch thick film of oil in a 2" diameter journal bearing turning at 4000 rpms is pretty high.
The mass of the air entering the combustion chamber may not be much, but it is exactly equal to the mass of the hot air exiting the chamber and is sufficient to do significant cooling of the much hotter piston surface just as the hot combustion gasses of the same thermal mass are sufficient to heat the piston surface.
The huge inefficiences of any heat engine are also caused by the thermal cycle of the engine which even if there were no other losses would still greatly limit the power you could generate from a certain amount of fuel. This is the heat going out the exhaust, which as 10c say accounts for the bulk of the energy.
Lets not forget that there is significant radiant transfer from the piston skirts to the cylinder walls as well. Also what percentage of oil that touches the piston is actually drawing heat directly from underneath the crown? Very little would be my guess, most of the oil would only touch the skirt and not get above the piston pin bosses. Areas that aren't hot at all compared to the crown. If you have drilled rods that deliver extra oil to the pin and spray it on the back side of the piston crown or some other form of piston cooling this would of course go up.
Also if you compare the extra fin area of the Smallcar pan to the fin area of a cooler it is going to be pretty small. The fin area probably does more for strength than for cooling. |
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Franklinstower
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Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: |
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I heard about this oil pan 4 months ago and told brian at small car I was interested in it once it arrives. I still am using the stock subaru oil pan on my 2wd and it has somes dents, but from what, I don't even know. So the extra clearance is something I look forward to. Also, this winter, I was stuck more than once and the oil pan was like an anchor in the snow. I did not want to use one of the shortened pans just from the oil pressure issues some people have had. Again, this pan seems to resolve that with its design. As far as cracking goes, Don't the offroad buggy guys use aluminum pans in their subaru powered buggies? probably with skid plates though.
another thing, the site says the features include:
Stock Subaru oil capacity (4.3 liters) or 5.5 quarts when filled to the later Subaru level What does this mean, when filled to the later subaru level?
paul
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Sodo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Yes lots of heat goes out the exhaust and out the radiator. Even radiates from the valve-covers. Big, big losses, probably half the energy of the fuel burned goes out the radiator and tailpipe. This heat came in with the fuel but goes out in a different pie-chart.
Only the heat going into the oil and departing thru the oilpan is relevant to whether a finned oilpan is useful. That's heat from the bottom of the piston, from the cylinder walls, and yes pumping oil, and shearing oil. And I am still thinking that the biggest source of this heat gets to the oil from the pistons because they are next to the fire. Sliding friction (yes from the pistons corner!  ) accounts for some too.
But this 'enhancement" is only useful if the system is unable to maintain the oiltemp (keeping oiltemp below the max temperature that damages the oil). If the oiltemp is OK without the fins, then they don't help at all. If they had contribution, fins would increase the time to attain proper engine temp in the wintertime.
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sodo
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Franklinstower wrote: |
| What does this mean, when filled to the later subaru level? |
That's the level it starts at before throwing the excess oil out (thru the PCV) to settle at the earlier level. (Just kidding, this is not funny to some....)
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'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:34 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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syncrodoka
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like they are saying to overfill the oil pan. Legacys through '96 only take 4.3 quarts of oil. Maybe later 2.5L motors take 5.5 quarts?
edit: looks like the 2005 2.5L H4 takes 5.5L |
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SyncroGhia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Has anyone bought and fitted one of these sumps to they're van yet?
Any photos? Am just wondering if it still sticks down a lot below everything else or not.
MG
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