Auto Trans Engine Install Nightmare

[Andre4]

My engine is almost in and when there's 1/8" of gap between the engine and trans I can spin the motor but as soon as I tighten the top nut and bolt the engine won't turn. When I first hung the engine up I tightened the three flex plate to torque converter bolts and on a friend's advice I have now slacked them off bit. Should I slack them off some more? IS there a particular way the torque converter should have been sitting in the trans before I started? I basically just popped it in there and started lifting the engine in. Also I had to drain the ATF out of the trans to remove the filler tube so it would clear the engine tin so the trans is dry right now. It is in neutral but is it possible that the engine is going in correctly but the trans won't allow me to spin the engine until there's some ATF in there?

Thanks,
Andre

[germansupplyscott]

sounds like the converter is not all the way in.
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SL

[Andre4]

OK I've taken the engine in an out 4 times now and it's always the same. Everything seems right until final tightening then the engine won't move. I had forgotten to remove the pilot bearing from the (formerly standard trans) case so I took that out but it didn't help.

So here's my question: When I seat the torque converter on the splined shafts of the trans it spins true but I can rock it back and forth easily. It seems to me it shouldn't do this. Also, when I pull out the central ATF pump rod and try to poke it directly into the torque converter on the bench it won't go in. it just barely catches the edge of the groves on it's tapered end. Is it possible I messed up these grooves? Should the rod slide right in there?

Thanks
Andre

[Andre4]

Well NOW it's been in and out 4 times, or out and in 4 times to be more accurate. I fiddled with the ATF pump rod on the converter and with some wiggling it did pop into the splines. I flipped the rod around and it went in that way too. This time I got in the engine bay and put the rod into the converter first then fed the rod down the center of the shaft with the converter attached, taking care not to put any stress on the rod. It slid in then I seated the converter. It felt pretty much the same as before, I could still rock it around. This time I was certain that the center rod was in the splines. For that matter there were two other distinct points where I felt the converter catch splines and slide further on so I'm 90% certain it is seated properly. Anyway, I put the engine in, tightened it up and exactly the same as before the motor won't turn once it is tight. It would seem there is some clearance problem, some compatability issue between the trans and the new engine. Both engines were GE code blocks. The donor engine is from a 78 and my van is a 78, as was the engine I just removed.

Can anyone offer any helpful suggestions? What am I missing here?

Thanks,
Andre

[busdaddy]

When you are tightening the last bolt and turning the engine at the same time does it drag to a stop smoothly or get chunky like it's rubbing against something?
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[Andre4]

It seems to get increasing difficult to turn as I tighten the last tiny bit. I'd say it drags to a stop more that it gets chunky.

[VDubTech]

Had you pulled the engine and tranny out together, you would be assembling them on the ground and wouldn't have this trouble. Removal.installation of the engine and tranny is much simpler than taking out one or the other.

That being said, I'm with Scott, your torque converter isn't seated all the way.
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[Andre4]

Yes, I won't install them seperately again and probably my next step will be to drop the trans so I can figure this out - or take the two of them to somebody who can...

[VDubTech]

At this stage of the game I would be pulling the tranny for sure. Get them together on the ground then reinstall as a unit. You need to spin the torque converter slowly while pushing in on it to make sure it seats all the way. Even though yours may seem like it's in all the way, I can almost guarantee it isn't. It shouldn't rock at all when it's installed properly. You'll know it when it falls into place.
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[Andre4]

OK thanks. I'll drop the engine again and try that TC one more time. If it pops in further than I've been able to make it do so far I'll raise the engine one last time. Otherwise it's all coming out!

Andre

[kerian159]

I would also have to agree with scott in that i've got a '76 Auto and had my engine out twice now. This last time I changed the Torque Converter seal so I had to pull the TC out (which I was very afraid of) but when I got the seal in and went to put the TC back in it slid on with no problems and does not "wobble" at all just spins nice and true. Hope everything goes well for you this time also if it does not go all the way perhaps take a few pics and measurments those of us with Auto's might be able to help with it if we could see it.

p.s. Scott thanks for getting those C.V. boots sent from rockford planning on getting them put in soon.

Jay
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[Andre4]

Thanks very much for the input and patience so far everybody... Should the gears inside the torque converter be free and wobbly when I poke my finger in there? I removed the engine again and once again seated the rod in the TC then slid it into the transmission. That's one set of splines and I distinctly felt the 2nd and 3rd set of splines engage. It seems to be in as far as it wants to go in but it is wobbly. I am suspecting that I damaged the TC when I removed the engine. I didn't remove the 13mm bolts from the flex plate the first time around so I had to push the engine back in, remove the bolts and then I was able to get the engine out. It certainly seems idiotic to me now but I didn't know about those bolts even though I carefully read the Bentley's engine removal instructions. Oh well, I should have known better but that's all in the past now.... I think that the wobble and clearance problems I am experiencing is in those loose (possibly screwed up) gears in the TC. Any opinions?

Andre

[germansupplyscott]

measure the depth from the mating surface of the diff housing to the plane of the three TC mount bosses. measure the projection of the flex plate from the mating surface on the crankcase. this will tell you if the TC is fully home. the TC will not wobble if it is fully home. it has a slight bit of movement but not what i would term a wobble.

yes the small gears inside the TC will move around if you poke them.
_________________
SL

[wvukidsdoc]

FWIW I'd differ and say with an autobox, leave the tranny in, it is the only late Bay bus that is EASY to pull and install the engine with the tranny in place. I think you need to be VERY careful that you have paid attention to the picture in every Bus/Vanagon/longitudinal FWD VW manual showing the seating of the pump shaft in the tranny. The problem you are describing is almost always that the pump shaft slips a bit out of the tranny (even though you placed it there wonderfully seconds before installing the TC) as you put things together, and then it is bound up deep in the tranny not seated in the pump splines which makes things stick out 1/8-3/16" or so too far, which when you bolt up the engine siezes it from turning. Properly seated when you get it all together there will actually be a bit of axial play in and out on the TC to flexplate, you can spin the TC freely to alighn your first hole. (Clean and red locktite those babies BTW, and if you hadn't realized it is best using a deep 3/8" drive socket through the acess hole to tighten them down, and if you drop one of the bolts, prepare to fish with a magnet and cuss.)

Anyway make sure the pump shaft is fully seated in the pump, just like the picture shows, a VERY SMALL dab of grease on the pump end might hold it, and if the tranny is angled down (which is likely is) it is amazing how it can slide out the 1/8" or so, 20 times in a row while you push it in some times. There is a bit of a wobble sometimes with a worn TC, but not much and it should perceptively improve when you have it seated truely home.

John

[Andre4]

I'm off to work but will look at this again tonight. I don't have any VW manuals with the picture you are refering to in it wvukidsdoc... I did a web search but came up dry as well. It sounds like my rod-in-the-tc install is a backwards step then, I'll put the rod in the shaft first and try to feel it seat in there. If I am not mistaken it will be recessed in the shaft when correctly in place? A couple of times when I've removed the engine then TC it has been pushed in there a little ways.

I'll also get the floor jack under the trans and try and get it levelled before I start messing again.

Andre

[germansupplyscott]

do the measurement.
_________________
SL

[Andre4]

I'll do that too!

[wvukidsdoc]

It is ALL about that insertion, and putting it in the pump end first.

I scanned from the late bay Dealer service manual (orange, second edition.) Look at bottom right. The pic is same for an 003 or 010 tranny. The picture changes in the Vanagon manual because the end of the shaft is no longer square but chamfered at about 45degrees (looks like they put it in pencil sharpner) in order to solve the exact problem you mention, the square one is a PITA to get to seat in the pump and in the TC properly, whereas the taperd one slides right in. They may be interchangeable (the trannies are pretty much given some detail issues) if you could find one but I'm sure not 100% on that. Regardless the chamfered one still needs to seat correctly as well. That stupid shaft can slip out like I said, literally 20 times in a row, the earlier one though harder to seat is a little less likely to slip out, but it must be right, on BOTH ends, then the TC will sit correctly on the turbine shaft without much wobble (depends on condition of the bushing in the TC.) I doubt you have damaged anything BTW, this happens "all the time."

John

[wvukidsdoc]

Oh if you have the late chamfered shaft from a Vanagon tranny (who knows what could have worked in there) there is not that little turned relief below the splines, that shows seating here, so the picture shows the dimension that the shaft should project out of the turbine shaft. Unfortunately, my wife has moved the 3-4 pieces that constitute the remains of my Vanagon manual and isn't here so I can't scan that pic. Whatever the dimension is I think it is the same projection for any VW auto tranny of the 80's to early 90's so if you got any manual for a Quantum, golf/jetta, whatever you can see the pic.

[wvukidsdoc]

Andre, just carefully reading your posts now, you do realize that you put the converter on the tranny, NOT the engine, then lift the engine up, bolt the engine bolts up, THEN install the 3 high grade flex plate to converter bolts through the acess hole. (You turn flexplate to acess a hole in the flexplate, then as I mentioned you just spin the converter around until one of the tabs is there at the flexplate hole, a bit of a PITA but not really as hard as it sounds, 2 people helps but not critical.) This has been hinted at here, but not expressly mentioned. If you are trying to have the converter on the engine/flexplate and install it in, I can't imagine the nightmare. This is what makes the auto so nice and easy to install, you just lift the engine straight up in with a jack, no friggin aligning an input shaft into a clutch and pilot bearing like on a stick. On a stick I'll always pull the engine/tranny as a unit, but never on an auto, it is just so stinking easy. If your flexplate was transferred to the new engine, no real imagineable reason things won't work out.

John