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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9407
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| Heb623 wrote: |
| In all the years before the years before 1951 there was NO hold on clip! |
Then why does the manual printed in Sept '50 show the hold down clip?
Or are you saying that there was a '51 only version of the filler, with no dimple and cone shaped filler flange and case bore opening?? |
PR says: 1 Aug 51 1-0278121 Oil Breather Now: Filler cap with clamp spring. |
Unless we have a different PR, you typed in data from 2 different entries. What I posted is correct. |
My bad. I read the VIN from the line below.... Ev is right.
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'57 Deluxe
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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So every split beetle produced before Aug. 1st no hold down clip?
I can live with that! Atleast it wasn't me not telling the truth!!!
 ET |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4202
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
My October 51 engine has the hold down clip.
from progressive refinements Aug 51 chassis no. 1-0272706 Oil Breather Now: Filler cap with clamp spring.
Chris |
My earlier quote concurs with Everett's.
Chris |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71536
Location: Phoenix 602
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
| Heb623 wrote: |
| In all the years before the years before 1951 there was NO hold on clip! |
Then why does the manual printed in Sept '50 show the hold down clip?
Or are you saying that there was a '51 only version of the filler, with no dimple and cone shaped filler flange and case bore opening?? |
PR says: 1 Aug 51 1-0278121 Oil Breather Now: Filler cap with clamp spring. |
Unless we have a different PR, you typed in data from 2 different entries. What I posted is correct.
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Heb623
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Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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When a sept '50 manual shows you a hold on clip why doesn't a nov '51 manual do that than? Even more my original "Reperatur leitfaden" out of early 1951 isn't showing a hold on clip! And then you like me too believe that they were already mounted in 1950! Don't think so!!!
ET |
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4202
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| splitvws wrote: |
. It does fit snug but I can't see it just sitting there and not coming out.
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That is why the added the clip. What you describe sounds correct to me.
Chris |
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splitvws
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 142
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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So if I am reading this correct a 50 would'nt use the clip to hold down the breather? I pulled my Feb 50 case out and the bore for the breather is straight and not coned and the breather I have has no dimple on top and is also straight where it fits in the case. It does fit snug but I can't see it just sitting there and not coming out.
Dave |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9407
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| Heb623 wrote: |
| In all the years before the years before 1951 there was NO hold on clip! |
Then why does the manual printed in Sept '50 show the hold down clip?
Or are you saying that there was a '51 only version of the filler, with no dimple and cone shaped filler flange and case bore opening?? |
PR says: 1 Aug 51 1-0278121 Oil Breather Now: Filler cap with clamp spring.
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EverettB
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Brezelwerks
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Joined: March 17, 2003
Posts: 1421
Location: Tyngsboro, MA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| In the 51-52 Tech Service manual there is no hold down clip shown in any of the pictures, nor is it mentioned in the various disassembly procedures. Anyone consult Progressive Refinements yet on this? |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9407
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Heb623 wrote: |
| In all the years before the years before 1951 there was NO hold on clip! |
Then why does the manual printed in Sept '50 show the hold down clip?
Or are you saying that there was a '51 only version of the filler, with no dimple and cone shaped filler flange and case bore opening??
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52HoffmanSplit
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Lamorinda CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
Wrong again.
There is no flare of the intake runner tube inside the endcasting on the 36 intake. The tube end is chamfer cut (inside bevel) |
John, I suspect that the only one who gives a crap about this at this point is you. Bevel, flare, whatever. It is still tapered. You can split hairs all you want to try to maintain your position as the early vw manifold expert of the world. I'm sure you were up late taking pictures just so could sleep because you could not take the fact that you might be wrong.
I don't really care.
Rareair and oval53 make assertions all the time and sometimes they are wrong and I never see them go the the great lengths that you go to beat their position to death to try to prove that they are right or get all defensive.
If I make an assertion that proves to be wrong , I look at it and say "wow, I learned something" Unlike you, I don't think I know everything. I don't see this as a contest. Of course when somone approches the debate t the way you do, it just turns me and others off. Every discussion group has at least one, and you my friend are it.
Chris |
You obviously care and give a crap or you wouldn't keep posting refuting opinions (opinions because you have yet to show any data that supports what you say). So that makes 2 by my count.
I am not an expert, but I have invested a lot of time with early intakes, so when someone says something incorrect about them in a public, technical forum like this, I will a) speak up and b) provide data to support my assertions. Get used to it. I don't know everything and learn new things here often.
For areas where I am not sure, or do not have data, I will always say "I think" or "I beleive", such as my first assertion that the carb riser tube was the same size, before I actually measured it (I posted "I beleive tha the carb riser tube is the same between the 25 and 36 hp manifolds").
I am not getting defensive at all, just making sure this thread contains verifiable data so that when others come here they do not get incorrect information. This is not a debate. This is a discussion of the technical aspects of a VW engine part. There is no opinion, ambiguity. A tube is either flared or it isn't. Debate is for things like if VWs look better lowered or not.
So either look at it and say "wow, I learned something", or post some pics of your rare "flared intake runner tube" manifold and we'll go from there.  |
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1952 11C Split L11
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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In all the years before the years before 1951 there was NO hold on clip! How do you think the oil filling pipe stayed in than? Because the tube of the pipe was cone shaped! The engine hole to put the pipe in was cone shaped too! An oil filling pipe of a '52 does not fit in a '51 engine because that pipe IS NOT cone shaped!! A 1952 oil filling pipe IS NOT cone shapedand the hole of the engine is not either and thats why they put an hold on clip!!! Before you start to say thart I am wrong again first check one time the differences between the original oil filling pipe of a 1951 (without dimple on top) and a 1952 oil filling pipe (with dimple on top)!
And than start talking again, you will see that I gave you the correcy answer!
ET |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9407
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| johnshenry wrote: |
Wrong again.
There is no flare of the intake runner tube inside the endcasting on the 36 intake. The tube end is chamfer cut (inside bevel) |
John, I suspect that the only one who gives a crap about this at this point is you. Bevel, flare, whatever. It is still tapered. You can split hairs all you want to try to maintain your position as the early vw manifold expert of the world. I'm sure you were up late taking pictures just so could sleep because you could not take the fact that you might be wrong.
I don't really care.
Rareair and oval53 make assertions all the time and sometimes they are wrong and I never see them go the the great lengths that you go to beat their position to death to try to prove that they are right or get all defensive.
If I make an assertion that proves to be wrong , I look at it and say "wow, I learned something" Unlike you, I don't think I know everything. I don't see this as a contest. Of course when somone approches the debate t the way you do, it just turns me and others off. Every discussion group has at least one, and you my friend are it.
Chris |
You obviously care and give a crap or you wouldn't keep posting refuting opinions (opinions because you have yet to show any data that supports what you say). So that makes 2 by my count.
I am not an expert, but I have invested a lot of time with early intakes, so when someone says something incorrect about them in a public, technical forum like this, I will a) speak up and b) provide data to support my assertions. Get used to it. I don't know everything and learn new things here often.
For areas where I am not sure, or do not have data, I will always say "I think" or "I beleive", such as my first assertion that the carb riser tube was the same size, before I actually measured it (I poasted "I beleive tha the carb riser tube is the same between the 25 and 36 hp manifolds").
I am not getting defensive at all, just making sure this thread contains verifiable data so that when others come here they do not get incorrect information. This is not a debate. This is a discussion of the technical aspects of a VW engine part. There is no opinion, ambiguity. A tube is either flared or it isn't. Debate is for thing like if VW look better lowered or not.
So either look at it and say "wow, I learned something", or post some pics of your rare "flared intake runner tube" manifold and we'll go from there.
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John Henry
'57 Deluxe
'56 Single Cab |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9407
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Heb623 wrote: |
I keep saying that my march 1951 split window like all other early 51 or late 50 splits had no hold on clip!!!
Oil filling tube on top flat!!
Late 51 and early 52 had a dimple on top of oil filling tube!!!
ET |
If there was no clip, how did it stay on? I have drivin my splits an forgotten about the clip and the breather jumps out of the case almost immediately...
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'56 Single Cab |
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vwtoyguy
Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2005
Posts: 344
Location: West Fork, AR
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Bevel, flare, whatever. It is still tapered. |
Take it from a machinist..... A taper and a chamfer are two completely different things.
He is not trying to save grace by posting the pics and whatnot he is trying to clear up missinformation. There is nothing wrong with that. 
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4202
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
Wrong again.
There is no flare of the intake runner tube inside the endcasting on the 36 intake. The tube end is chamfer cut (inside bevel) |
John, I suspect that the only one who gives a crap about this at this point is you. Bevel, flare, whatever. It is still tapered. You can split hairs all you want to try to maintain your position as the early vw manifold expert of the world. I'm sure you were up late taking pictures just so could sleep because you could not take the fact that you might be wrong.
I don't really care.
Rareair and oval53 make assertions all the time and sometimes they are wrong and I never see them go the the great lengths that you go to beat their position to death to try to prove that they are right or get all defensive.
If I make an assertion that proves to be wrong , I look at it and say "wow, I learned something" Unlike you, I don't think I know everything. I don't see this as a contest. Of course when somone approches the debate t the way you do, it just turns me and others off. Every discussion group has at least one, and you my friend are it.
Chris |
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Heb623
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:34 am Post subject: |
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I keep saying that my march 1951 split window like all other early 51 or late 50 splits had no hold on clip!!!
Oil filling tube on top flat!!
Late 51 and early 52 had a dimple on top of oil filling tube!!!
ET |
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johnshenry
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2001
Posts: 9407
Location: Northwood, NH USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Wrong again.
There is no flare of the intake runner tube inside the endcasting on the 36 intake. The tube end is chamfer cut (inside bevel) just short of the end casting face. This creates a smooth change in diameter but the outside diameter of the intake tubing is the same all the way through end casting, for 25 and 36hp intakes. The "flare" you are feelign with your calibrated analog finger (CAF) is the chamfer cut of the tubing end.
In the pic below you can see a 36 and 25 hp (late 25 hp) endcasting from the bottom. The intake tubing actually does not touch the head when installed, the endcasting face mates with the crush gasket. I copied the pictures and showed where the chamfer ends on both with a red line.
The endcasting is pressed on with an interfence fit that is well above the head face, in the upper part of the endcasting. Just as the 25hp endcastings need no flare to hold on to the tubing, neither do the 36 ones. The chamfer cut is to allow a smooth flow of gases from the smaller diameter tubing to the larger opening in the head.
In the very early K manifolds, the tubing does go all the way to the endcasting face:
Note that the 25 intake on the right has a cogwheel logo.
If you really want to hold on to your assertion, I'll hammer a 36 hp endcasting off and post a pic of the inside bore which is a uniform 20 mm end to end....
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splitjunkie
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Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4202
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| johnshenry wrote: |
The K manifolds have endcastings brazed on, all of the others are pressed on. There is no flare of the intake runner where it meets the endcasting on any of these intakes.
All but the 36hp "701E" intake have endcasting faces dimensioned for 25 hp heads.
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If you read what I said, the flare is inside the casting. If you stick you finger in a head end hole on 36 hp manifold you will feel the flare. I measured that with my analog finger. The size of the hole is bigger on the 36 hp because the end casting is bigger. They pressed the casting on then then expanded the tubing inside the casting, probably to provide a better mechanical connection between the tube and the casting then machined the end. Either that or they were just cheap and did not want to use bigger tubing so they just flared it to match the larger hole on the 36hp head.
The 25 hp has a smaller opening because the end casting is smaller. There is no flair inside a head end hole on a 25 hp manifold.
Chris |
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