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usedcarr
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Calabasas CA
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 Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, FRONTS, I see now. I am nowhere near as smart as I look. I thought he did both. Nice graphs BTW loogy, I like the multi colors. Pretty!
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10'0" Lance Carson
6'3" Hamisch Fish
Schwinn Beach Cruiser
Sold the westy, never even drove it |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the additional photos of the spacer Herman.
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87 Westy Camper |
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itzdshtz
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Revelstoke
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rileyh
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2007
Posts: 1
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:29 am Post subject: Spacer material |
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| The spacer between the ball joint and the upper a-arm looks good. What material did you use? I cannot tell from the pictures. Aluminum would be the easiest to machine but I would be worried about it being strong enough, especially over a long period of time with fatigue. Thanks. |
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itzdshtz
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Revelstoke
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys, I hope it was helpful.
My spacer is 1" thick and tapers down to 0.600", it brings the ball joint angle down to what it was before I installed the extended shock absorbers, so it should be OK when the suspension is fully compressed.
westysapien, your van looks great, 1" would probably do it for you too.
Loogy, you made some very interesting calculations and a nice chart!
Herman
_________________
1989 Westy
1987 Westy Syncro 2.5 M- TDI
1991 Syncro, future 1.9 M- TDI
2005 Audi allroad 4.2
2005 S4
http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/
http://picasaweb.google.com/itzdshtz/VanagonSyncroProject02 |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Wow. Awesome Chris. Thank you. Based on your information I'm inclined to build 1.75" spacers, install 'em and see what kind of camber sitch I get. Trimming 'em down would be a cinch if that's what's indicated.
The 1000+ mile trip to eastern Oregon was a hoot. I'll be posting a thread about it to relate all of the van parts that rattled loose/off as a result of the washboards roads that I was able to drive so much darn faster on with the new suspension!
I should point out that post-trip, the front has settled in to 18.5"...I REALLY don't expect any further settlement...I'm talkin' REALLY fast on REALLY washboarded roads for LOTS of miles. No movement of the shims. Rears still at 18.75"...I may drop 'em a 1/4" someday in order to satisfy my Libra nature. Lotta other westy work higher up the que though...more on that in that coming thread.
Here's a teaser though...a shot of the camel totin' our tubes on the trip:
Thanks again Chris...it'll be some time before I get the spacers made, and based on the handling, I can't justify doing it...it handles AWESOME! But, intellectually, I know you're right...it can be even better! Which is even MORE AWESOME! I'll post about the job when I do. And thanks for your contribution itzdshtz...very impressive! And inspirational!
Peace,
Mike
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87 Westy Camper |
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tikibus
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2006
Posts: 834
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Wow!
Okay, I take back my smartass comment and sit humbly.
Nice work.
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Happy Trails!
Mark
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Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5526
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
What wouuld be the effect of body roll during these cornering calculations? It seems like it could affect it.
Al |
Yes, the body roll definately affects the suspension geometry. The body roll will exagerate the calculations. For example (just a rough example to make it easy to understand), let's say you combine 1º of camber gain as the suspension compresses along with 1º of body roll. It's easy to see how the camber gain (or lack of it in some cases) will be greater with the added body roll. Therefore, it is important to do what we can to make the supension geometry as "right" as possible in order to have a good handling vehicle.
It is possible to plot out all of the changes but it involves figuring the roll center, instantaneous centers, center of gravity, roll angle, etc.
Here's a quote from Allan Staniforth, suspension authority:
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The trouble with all theoretical suspension concepts is that they alter once real life cornering and other forces come into play, because static data on which they are based alters. The Dynamic Roll Centre (as opposed to the static one) can and does move up, down and sidways. How far and which way are two of the several questions not easy to answer.
Roll being itself a function of another equally invisible point, the Centre of Gravity (which though fixed can appear to exert itself dynamically as if it had moved), it can be seen how the variations and uncertainties are rapidly multiplying. Leverages alter, the car's attitude alters, weight transfer from inner to outer wheels alters, and the end of the line, the tyre contact patches start distorting under a complex and varying series of loads. |
It should be easy to see just how complicated this can get. I have always wanted to plot out the complete geometry of a lowered bus but have never taken the time.
Itzdshtz, Very nice work on those spacers as well as the rest of your Syncro project.
Did you happen to observe the upper ball joint angle with the suspension fully compressed with your angled spacers installed? Just curious because I would be worried that the joints might run out of angular movement before the suspension does. I'm not sayingthat this is the case, it's just something that I would want to know.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4570
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Upper ball joint spacer |
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| itzdshtz wrote: |
After I installed my extended front shocks, (I have 23" between the center of the hub and the fender bottom) I ended up making a spacer that fits between the ball joint and the A-arm.
The problem I had was that the rubber boot kept popping off the ball joint when the vehicle was jacked up, the angle was too steep.
It also looked like I had too much negative Camber, the spacer is angled and just bolts in between. You will have to drill out the threads of your ball joint, there are two socket type bolts on the top and 2 on the bottom.
This will also work for a regular Vanagon.
Some pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/itzdshtz/VanagonSyncroProject02
http://vanagonsyncroproject-herman.blogspot.com/ |
Wow. Nice! This guy is from a different planet. and my favorite engine, too!
Didn't the Eurovan diesel ever get turboed?
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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itzdshtz
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Revelstoke
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4570
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Chris:
Nice work. What wouuld be the effect of body roll during these cornering calculations? It seems like it could affect it.
I agree, the extension for the ball joint would be simplest. Though , cutting and welding the upper arm would not be too difficult, either.
It seems like machining a spacer trom aluminum and using linger bolts wold be simple.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5526
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Alright, I was able to plot the geometry of the 2wd T3 front suspension. I found some interesting things. Keep in mind if you are new to suspension geometry that positive camber means the top of the tire tips outward. Negative camber means the top of the tire tips inward.
First off, take a look at this chart.
Stock Geometry - 0º Camber at rest
1" of wheel travel = +0.25º
2" of wheel travel = 0º
3" of wheel travel = -0.50º
4" of wheel travel = -1.00º
5" of wheel travel = -2.00º
6" of wheel travel = -3.50º
The geometry was based on a stock '85 GL. The blue line represents the point in which the front suspension actually starts to gain camber. Gaining some amount of negative camber is important to good handling especially during quick evasive maneuvers when the suspension goes through massive geometry changes. Note that the camber actually goes +.25º during 1" of wheel travel in the stock height geometry. Definately not a huge amount but the front outer tire in a corner should never go positive.
Now think about this. During a corner, let's say the inner suspension compresses 1". This means that the inner suspension will droop roughly 1" as well. Look at what happens to the camber gain when the suspension droops 1". It goes -.75º. This means that during this corner, the top of your outer tire is tipping outward and the top of the inner tire is pointing inward. Not a very good scenerio for good handling. And again, this is on a completely stock suspension.
Now let's look at westysapien's 2" lifted suspension as it sits today.
Lifted 2" - 1º Camber at rest
1" of wheel travel = 0º
2" of wheel travel = +1.50º
3" of wheel travel = +2.25º
4" of wheel travel = +2.00º
5" of wheel travel = +1.50º
6" of wheel travel = +0.50º
7" of wheel travel = -0.50º
It takes nearly 7" of travel before ANY negative camber is gained at the outside front wheel. The inside front wheel is gaining negative camber at an even higher rate as the inside suspension lifts.
If the camber was corrected to 0º but no spacers added, the profile is similar to the above example (-1º camber at rest) except that you gain full positive camber at 4" of wheel travel as opposed to 3" of wheel travel.
So here's the camber profiles if a 1", 1.5" or 2" spacer is added between the upper ball joint and the upper control arm. This profile is assuming an at rest camber of 0º. I only plotted the first 3" of wheel travel for these simply because I only wanted to see where the negative gain started. The reason for the 4" wheel travel profile in the list for the 2" wheel spacer is to show how rapidly camber is gained with that much spacer added.
1" Spacer - 0º Camber at rest
1" of wheel travel = +0.25º
2" of wheel travel = +0.25º
3" of wheel travel = -0.75º
1.5" Spacer - 0º Camber at rest
1" of wheel travel = 0º
2" of wheel travel = -0.50º
3" of wheel travel = -0.75º
2" Spacer - 0º Camber at rest
1" of wheel travel = -0.25º
2" of wheel travel = -1.25º
3" of wheel travel = -2.00º
4" of wheel travel = -3.00º
My recommendation would be to build a spacer somewhere between 1.5" and 1.75". Even a 1" spacer would help a lot. With a 1" spacer, you would start gaining negative camber roughly 2.5" of wheel travel whereas now you don't start gaining until roughly 6.5" of wheel travel. Quite a difference for such a small spacer. A 2" spacer gains negative camber too quickly.
It's amazing the difference between a 1.5" spacer and a 2" spacer. The 2" spacer gains camber so much more rapidly than the 1.5". I did not profile a 1.75" spacer but I would venture to guess that it would be a fairly decent looking profile with maybe ever so slightly too much camber gain near the 4-5" wheel travel mark.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
| Question is: Where did you get those spacer rings, or did I miss that in some place in this thread????? |
That's affirmative Walt. In post #9. Here you go:
| westysapien wrote: |
The rear spring caps are California Bearing Ratio testing surcharge weights such as these: http://www.humboldtmfg.com/c-10-p-179-id-10-next-2.html
They can be had from testing labs that go out of business cheap. OD is 6", ID is 2"...works perfectly
The front caps are custom built from these:
http://soiltest.com/pdf/Concrete/samplepreparation.pdf See page 6 for the pads. The 6 inch diameter ones need only a little trimming to work...5.625" OD and 3.375" ID fits perfectly.
For fine tuning of lift height I made shims out of Mack Truck mud flaps. Then I glued them all together with Gorilla Glue. I've done some serious off-roading with these caps...nothing has moved. They have settled some.
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A note on the alignment. While I do believe everything that Chris has said regarding the dynamics involved with my lifted rig with it's (slightly) negative camber, I think it's worth noting that from an observational standpoint, I can't recognize anything in the handling that would indicate a problem. Simply put, the handling is excellent, and clearly an improvement relative to the way it was pre-spring pad lift...with correct camber. I attribute the improvement to an increased (stiffer) spring rate. Nonetheless, I'm sure that Chris is right when he states that handling can be improved through a return to correct camber. Look forward to that!
I've got to get packing now...there're some eastern Oregon trouties that're waitin' for me to go dancin' with 'em!
Back atcha all on the other side. I'll take lotsa pictures!
Mike
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| usedcarr wrote: |
| FWIW Seth at Mastercraft sells an extended control arm. The are on the vanperformance website, they look trick. |
Very trick indeed...except they're for the rear. My alignment is slightly out in the front. My idea of cutting and welding the front upper control arm was probably subconsciously inspired by my awareness of those Mastercraft rear arms  .
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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OK, OK, my 85 Westy sits on syncro.org springs. Best I can get it to sit is at 18.25. To combat Westy lean I have a thick metal spacer I made for the left rear. It sits level with not alignment issues. An extra half an inch would make me more happy.
Question is: Where did you get those spacer rings, or did I miss that in some place in this thread?????
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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usedcarr
Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Calabasas CA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW Seth at Mastercraft sells an extended control arm. The are on the vanperformance website, they look trick.
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10'0" Lance Carson
6'3" Hamisch Fish
Schwinn Beach Cruiser
Sold the westy, never even drove it |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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For those interested in this thread the word from loogy is that he'll be out of town this week, info on UC spacer to come next week. I'm off to explore eastern Oregon in and around the westy!
Back on the 15th...will check in then.
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
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OK, Chris, got the control arm angles measured this morning. They are (relative to horizontal): lower (measured at the most outboard position, adjacent to the lower BJ): - 3 degrees; upper (measured on the top surface of the arm at the middle position): -27 degrees. Please let me know if other measurement locations would be more useful...top of upper BJ?
Much obliged for any help you can provide with sizing a spacer. Great idea, BTW. Thanks!
Mike
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Herr Motorspiele
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2007
Posts: 453
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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That thing is awesome! Nice job!
Now where can I get some of those spacers for cheap over here on the right coast? |
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snoop
Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2007
Posts: 373
Location: SW Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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ThanksTSR53.
Westy w/stock springs, GW 15" wheels and Michelin 215/65 tires.
Westy w/syncro.org springs, GW 16" wheels and BFG 215/70 tires.
Spring caps: rear and front.
Compressing the right front syncro.org spring.
Westy w/spring caps, syncro.org springs, GW 16" wheels and BFG 215/70 tires.
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