Dead Engine ~ Advice Please

[Randy in Maine]

Suggestion:

Send a PM off to Al Brase "69doublecab" and ask him how much work it would be to install a baywindow 4th gear on your transmission. He is a smart guy and knows plenty of vanagon transmission stuff. If anyone would know it would be him.

I don't know if it costs a lot to do it, but if everything (like the engine) is out, now would be the time to do it.

I think it would gear you down a bit and would take some of the load (ie cylinder head temps) off your rebuilt engine. Temps are what kills most of us and it shows up in the heads.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lanval]

Too much work probably. One of the heads is also punked up around the valves (are those the valve seats? Sorry, don't have my Bentley, and this is the first time I've been inside an engine), and they heads don't match. One is missing the rims completely, the other has the bottom half of the rim, but not the top.

I'm going to get new heads. Simple, easy, last a good long time.

Best,

Lanval

[Wildthings]

Probably best to have the heads cut so that the head volume is the same for all. After cutting you will want your mechanic to use shims under the jugs to adjust the deck height. This is necessary to make up for the material removed from the heads. You don't want the pistons to slap the head after all. If the two heads have been cut differently it is harder for the mechanic to get the compression the same in all the cylinders. A tight deck of around .040 will usually give the best results.

[Lanval]

Randy,

Hate to say it, but I don't know what 'flycut' means either. So I asked today, what he meant when he said 'shaved';

When looking at the side of the head which meets the case, you are looking at 2 round holes, with the valve in the middle of the holes. Around the holes, there is a raised rim or lip, about 1/8 in or so(?). On both heads, this rim had been shaved away; on one head, partially ~ the head had the rim from 3 O'clock to 9 O'clock. On the other head, the rim was completely gone.

I was told this raised rim helps the head dissipate heat better.

As a follow up, I've decided to have them rebuild the engine using all new stuff. Might as well do it right, if doing it at all.

Rebuilding it myself, though possible, is not a good use of my time, as opposed to writing a dissertation (much larger investment of time & money).

Rebuilding with reman/cheapie stuff seems like false economy.

With the engine done properly, I always have the option of swapping my rebuilt into a different body, should I find one that I like better than my current. And I could sell it (since it's a now working westy) for the cost of the rebuild or more possibly.

I'll keep you guys posted. Also, I'm going to go take some pix of the heads and other stuff, before I get to wrapped up in other stuff.

Best,

Lanval

[Randy in Maine]

For my money I would also buy new heads also and have those improved by Adrian or Hoffman.

Call Bus Depot and ask them what the poop is on those and let us know what they say.

Are you saying that your heads were flycut?

[Captain Pike]

My $$$$ ____$500 more for new heads is totally worth it.
_________________
LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
....Bad Sneakers....

[Lanval]

Bill W, are you asking about Busdepot warranty? I don't know, but I assume they would. As for the shop, I've no idea.

The shop offered to just put the engine back together with new main bearing and seals, so I could sell it or drive it till it eats itself. But they won't back that build, as far as warranty, and no surprise there.

Randy, I got the impression that because the heads are "shaved" they're not really worth reworking. Some shops say that kind of stuff because they don't like dealing with the hassle, I suspect, but that is almost certainly not the case here.

I'm just wondering if the extra $500 for new heads is worth it. It is possible that the shop won't want to warranty work done with reman heads. I'd be cautious about that if it were my biz, 'cause then you're banking on someone else having done a good job, and that just doesn't happen as often as it should.

Best,

Lanval

[Randy in Maine]

Suggestion:

Call Bus Depot and ask Ron how the heads are really "improved". Perhaps they are done correctly, I don't know.

Otherwise I would send off the heads you have to Adrian at Headflowmasters and for about $650 he can probably fix them. Old ad below and I don't think they have a website anymore.

[Captain Pike]

Will they warranty the heads for sucked seats? If so in the shops I worked in those # sound fair. Engine 1 year with proof of oil change.
Air boxes tend to burn up the Ps and Ls so go Mahle there.
_________________
LEARN TO SELF RESCUE
59 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
....Bad Sneakers....

[Lanval]

OK,

I talked with my guy this morning, got a price for rebuild.

My question ~ given that money is an issue, would it be generally acceptable to go with reman heads from Busdepot ($189 per) and the Mahle pistons from Brazil? Anyone have experience with those?

Those two choices would get me a rebuilt engine in the $2K range, which I can live with. I've been pretty satisfied with the stuff I've gotten from Busdepot, so I'm willing to try the heads, in order to save cash. But I'd be curious to hear what people think about reman vs. new?

FYI, the old heads have been "shaved" ~ though I don't know exactly what that means. The shop said that it'll reduce cooling efficiency. Also the valve seats on one head are bad.

Best,

Lanval

[terryg]

[quote="Taylor L"]
More good advice. In particular, I think Boston Bob is the way to go. For about 3 grand you can get a long block with brand new heads shipped, and your core shipped back to him. When you look into what it takes to actually build one of these engines and BUILD IT RIGHT, that's not very much money. With BB you are getting an engine built buy someone who knows about all there is to know about these engines and is obsessed with making sure every thing is perfect about every engine that leaves his shop. He's not just slapping some parts together and crating them up.
/quote]

I have a BB engine with 15k on it and it's just like I got it - strong and smooth. If you decide on JR, make sure you and he understand exactly what he is providing and what he will stand up to. You must build or get built JRs engine parts, and he must be convinced that his parts are used properly for him to support them. BB lives by actually building A/C engines, JR sells parts for Vanagon engines but he doesn't build them because he fears them. BB fears them too, but he will stand by a nearly stock rebuild since he knows that is the only reasonable approach to A/C Vanagon engines. He's right!

[Alan Brase]

I like the idea of a used engine, but I'd just tear it partly apart first, unless you can do a compression test before you buy it.
And have the heads fixed by someone good and put in new rings.
And, keep in mind, the only ones that will fit easily are the 1979 and later with square port heads. Early oval port heads will not fit your exhaust system and trying to use one them will only lead to long term grief.
So, keep in mind, GET A VANAGON air cooled MOTOR.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home

[Taylor L]

[mightyart]

Ok, I guess he knows, but did you tell him to take it apart?
He's going to put it back together can so it's driveable till your ready to spend the cash isn't he?
It was driveable when you took it to him or was it broke down?

[Lanval]

Yeah, it's in pieces on the floor of the shop, so he was able to pick up the head and point to the problem areas, same for piston, etc.

Lanval

Here's the progression ~

Fairly significant leak, I think it's the main seal. I think this because if I park the van nose up (oil running towards the back of the van), I get a small, silver dollar-sized oil spot. Park nose down, I get a spot about the size of an 8.5 x 11 in piece of paper.

He dropped the engine to do the main seal, and discovered the source of the oil leak is actually a small, round plug in the engine case, which requires splitting the case to get to. The plug is spinning in its place. Later, after the case was split I saw the edge of the seal. It looked sketchy to me.

Splitting the case, I assume, enabled him to see other clues as the state of the engine, i.e. the main bearing, heads, etc.

Yeah, it was drivable when it arrived. I don't know if I'll have him put it together or not. That's what I was wondering about when I started this thread. (I can have it towed to my place free). Do I want to just bring it home, and rework the engine bit by bit, get a new engine, get a new van, etc., etc. Just looking for advice from people who've been down the various parts of this road, and seeing how they might handle it.

Best,

L

[klucz]

You know, after reading the other responses here and thinking a bit--I take back what I said above. I was thinking more or less along the lines of that you're broke and don't have time to deal with it. If you tried selling it as is then you'd just have to deal with a bunch of lowballers anyway. Sounds like swapping in a used stock motor is your best bet for now.

-Paul

[mightyart]

I'm assuming he took your engine out of the van and dissasembled it?
Maybe I'm missing something but you drove it to there to fix a oil leak(not uncommon in an aircooled)so the heat would work and he takes the engine out to trace a leak?

[Randy in Maine]

My suggestion would be to park it until you can do it correctly. grad school is far more important. Buy a beater if you have to.

Boston Engine or Raby would be both of my choices for a new engine.

A 914 or a 912 engine won't last long in a vanagon as a vanagon generates way too much cylinder heads temps and they will soon drop a valve seat.

[Lanval]

Thanks all,

Much to think about here; answers:

Mightyart ~ the mechanic came highly recommended from Walter (r39o); yes I agree the cable bit was odd, but I chalk it up to miscommunication, and the fact that I didn't know what I was asking about. I trust him.

I can't say what all was bad, here's what I remember; the main bearing had an odd hole and was scored. It was installed wrong (by the PO who did a home-brew rebuild). Several of the pistons were clearly scored/scratched on the sides, vertically. Looking at one of the heads, several of the valves were pretty beat up, with jagged edges all the way 'round.

There was some other stuff as well. I'll get the final/complete answer on Monday, when he has time to go over and intemize what needs to be done.

Some other answers:

No, it's not a daily driver, though that's what I wanted to do with it for the next 6 months. I have another minivan (wife-mobile) a mazda which seems relatively safe for now.

I can indeed ride a bike pretty much wherever I need to go.

I'm not in a hurry. Being in a hurry is how I got here. I've now learned a good many hard lessons about vanagons. Time to take time, do it right.

[Wildthings]

What is your oil pressure? Does you warning light work, and does it come on when it is not supposed to? A properly working light will come on at least at idle if your main bearings are going south. Type 4 bottom ends are pretty tough and seldom give problems.

What is your compression? You can check it yourself with a cheap compression gauge and a spark plug wrench. Just follow the instructions that come with the tester. If your compression is good then your heads and pistons are likely both good.

What is your oil usage? Even a quart every 500 miles is nothing to worry about.