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Lionhart94010
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Just an additional thought about the dual crabs on your motor; the item below is almost indispensable to get them to run well, maybe the pour running is that your carbs are badly out of sync, very common …
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D7125
PS you may already know all this but I do not remember you posting your expertise level with ACV, so just in case I thought I would mention it. |
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Lionhart94010
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Just an FYI, you ca get better results on your searches if you include "AND" as what yielded the link below:
Oil AND sensor AND Location
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=271292&highlight=oil+sensor+location
From my understanding it should go where the oil going to the bearings is moving over it not in a somewhat stagnant corner... See URL Above for answers.
All I can say about most cars running like crap is 70% F/A fuel issue 20% ignition timing/spark issue. You wont be sorry spending the money on F/A meter, I cant even imagine how many hours I have spent trying to get poorly jetted carbs running right, as I mention previously unless you are a naturally gifted mechanic (1 in 10,000) there is little chance you can tune your carbs correctly and eliminate the major cause for an engine not doing what is can/should at idle, mid RPM and WOT.
If your motor got hot enough to melt aluminum on your I'm pretty sure your car would have caught on fire, lead yes Alu not likely...
My advice is to spend a little cache and get a complete Oil, a CYL Temp and AF meter and do some additional testing to see what is going on with your motor, you cant go wrong having the information they will provide to get you moving on the right direction... |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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lionhart,
the manual switch is not that distracting. im not aginst a thermal unit, but this was not high on my conversion list at the time.
i don't know if the fiat water gage is actually 190 when it is indicated. however I have tested them enough to know that they are consistant.
so maybe 190 is +/- 10 in actuallity.
PS where would you concider placing the temp sensor?
most of my driving is of short duration.
I don't know if I have a heat issue for sure.
last drive the car ran like crap, upon investigation I found the left side carb lost its secondary venturi. (didn't notice the previous running)
I also found a small blob of melted aluminum on the butterfly. |
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Lionhart94010
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, what you are suggesting, definitely can work, as melville said it was done for T3's & 411's still DTM or VW dog house from the back will be better, it would be hard to make a ducting system to work just around the fan belt and intake... compared to the back of the others; plus the 911 style coolers are mostly JUNK! Looking cool is not the same as having a cool and reliable motor!
RE:
I have a switch on the dash to start the fan. (that works, you could also autmate it so you can enjoy the convertible instead keeping you eye on oil temp and turning it on and off to keep the oil at the optimum temp)
RE:
i have a thremal sensor in the (type 3) oil block off plate (not the best palace for it from what I understand)
RE:
and according to my original water gauge, im never over 190 degrees oil temp. (How can you tell if the gauge is accurate and appropriate for the use?)
From your post I am amusing you are having overheating problem, it might be helpful to look at Jimmy111 post about HD pumps, perhaps you are not getting cool oil to your motor because of the added peruse not being compatible with your oil relief system. In addition, if you add a CYL temperature and an AF meter to make sure your F/A is correct it should go a long way to getting you to know how hot your engine is REALLY getting with correct F/A ratio.
Good luck on your project, (PS if you spring for a DTM now you will be able to use it later if you decide to go with a more powerful motor later and still keep your modifications useful) |
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Jimmy111
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yes you can pull the air thru. But you will need to make all new parts to do the job and it will get expencive. In the mid 80's I made a pull thru kit modeled from the porshe setup and it cooled great. But everything is special and you cant just buy the parts. I only had 3 sales because it did not look cool. The fan needed to be ducted out the back of the engine cover and no one liked that Idea. |
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melville
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2006
Posts: 1293
Location: Just Outside the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| rearenddude wrote: |
I don't wan't to sound dense but....
if it is possiable to source fresh air to the cooling fan (and the carbs)
is sealing the engine bay no longer important?
( back to the porche style system) |
If you can do it that way it will work. That's what VW did with the Type 3 and 411/12 wagons. Cooling air most important, cool air to carbs a secondary concern. What's above the gas tank? Can you vent there direct to the fan entry?
_________________
2000 M Roadster
79 R100RS
78 R100/7
75 R75/6
65 Standard Micro
57 Sedan |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: |
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lionhart.
I have a switch on the dash to start the fan.
i have a thremal sensor in the (type 3) oil block off plate
and according to my original water gauge, im never over 190 degrees oil temp.
I do have the oil filter/pump system on my motor.
I don't wan't to sound dense but....
if it is possiable to source fresh air to the cooling fan (and the carbs)
is sealing the engine bay no longer important?
( back to the porche style system) |
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Lionhart94010
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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If you already have an oil cooler in the nose with a fan, it would have been helpful to give us a that information earlier.
Is your oil setup thermostatically controlled? Any way if it is thermostatically controlled it should not hurt to run the stock cooler in addition to your external unit, (hope you also added an oil filter to your setup)
As Jimmy111 said, the first thing is to isolate the hot (used) cooling air from recycling into the cooling fan again and again... As well as all the air that is being hated up by being in contact with the hot exhaust...
The only way I do that is to replicate the sealed upper half of the motor form the bottom half you find in a VW setup(you will have to do a very good job of it), conceptually, think of it as if you had to make it water tight no leaks from top side to bottom except through the cooling fan intake.
You may also want to invest in an F/A meter as the correct F/A somewhere between 10:1 to 12:1 F/A will do a lot to keep your motor running smoothly & cool and make the most power. PS innless your are an ACE mechanic this is the best thing you can ever do to get your car running right! (But don't forget to time it correctly)
The SM-AFR/DM-5 is a true plug and play digital wide band air/fuel ratio monitor.
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1673 $ 262.95
In addition, I would HIGHLY recommend a Dakota Digital head temperature gauge and an oil temperature gauge too!
ALSO Check out Jimmy111, article on the correct way to make your oil system work if you are using an HD oil pump!
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=280293&highlight=jimmy111
I agree with Jimmy111, that a 74 VW cooling shroud would be much better cooling than your current setup or a 911 style cooler, most likely the only better alternative to a stock Dog House VW fan shroud is a DTM if it is in your budget. However all in all no cooling shroud will help you much until you figure out how to isolate the exhaust heat (from shroud and exhaust system) from re-circulating into your fan shroud.
The air cooled in the VW air-cooled stands for Fan shroud Air and incoming combustion Air & Fuel, on top of that the oil also plays a part as air is used to cool that too! |
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neil68
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007
Posts: 3452
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Jimmy111
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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If I was you I would get all the tin and install it.Then use some sheetmetal and fill in the openings.
The doghouse shroud does a much better job of directing the air to the cylinders. |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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ok this is an older photo.
I have tin from the rear of the car to just forward of the cylinders.
closing to the gas tank is going to be difficult.
I have an oil cooler in the nose of the car with a fan.
so why the 74 doghouse shroud? will it make any difference since the cooler isn't in there? |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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hows this.
[/img] |
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Jimmy111
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Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I see...
You need to make some tin and install it. Also change your shroud to a 74 or so doghouse type if you can. Your motor overheats because your carbs and cooling system inhale all the hot air from the motor. |
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Jimmy111
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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 You got one that has a few thousand more pictals in it?? |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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sorry, crappy photo.
a good view of the engine bay is on this web site.
click the "home" tab above and in the galley search box type "fiat" then pick "go"
on page 2 you will be able to get the photo I sent in a viewable size. |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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a photo.
the bar directly behind the carbs and shroud is the engine mount.
the motor "hangs" from the top two tranny bolts.
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Lionhart94010
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005
Posts: 1418
Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Jake,
That is valuable information, for my next motor! How much more do you think the Carrera style T1 cooler will be capable cooling?
Jimmy111,
Due to the size and design of the T1 Motor, cylinder head compared to the other air cooled motors I have been looking at for inspiration, I am concerned most about the heat they can dissipate, I agree that the motor must be looked at as a set of interdependent systems.
I have several "Bus" engines in the works, on my 2007cc 78x90 I will use the following parts to address the heat question:
Standard VW FI Fans shroud with velocity Ring(I have two different models one seems to have more development that the other)
I don't believe that I will be able to use a DTM with this setup because I’m using a Stock VW FI intake connected to CB FI end castings; I know that the CB FI end castings will limit intake air but they are larger than the Factory 1600cc FI intakes and this will not be a high revving motor, I need the lower end torque.
CB Center mount Fuel injection with a dash mounted Innovate F/A meter, to keep an eye on F/A
(I am limited to center mount FI because of the BN4 heater taking up lots of valuable space in Driver side of engine bay)
Full Flow Oil filter with thermostatically controlled external oil cooler, I have found several Thermostats ranging from 170 to 190, (I am leaning toward the 190 as it hopefully will only be needed on long hills and hot summer freeway driving, the stock or T4 cooler doing it for normal driving)
Originally, I was going to use an MSD-6 AL-2 with a stock SVDA distributor but I am now thinking of using a Mallory Unilite after reading many postings on thesamba.
Heads are CB 044 and have 40 x 35.5mm
Exhaust is 1 ½ Merged
Current compression ration is set to 7.2:1
Scat C25 Cam w/Stock Rockers
This motor will probably not make 160hP :0)
The DTM or Carrera style cooer will be for my 82x90.5 or some LN Nikes from Jake if I can afford them. (I already have most of mechanical long block parts)
For that motor I am hoping for 150-200 HP :0) It will have a MegaSquirt FI & ignition control and I will build a custom optimized air intake for it, and apply any and all lessons leaned from the data I collect from my 2007cc FI T1 motor.
rearenddude,
DTM stands for Down The Middle, it is a custom made cooling shroud currently being made and sold by Jake Raby
www.aircooledtechnology.com
I would think that keeping the incoming air coming from stock setup would be the simples way to go, the VW fan sits pretty close to the fire wall...
Can you post some pictures of your engine compartment to get an idea of what you are faced with?
Last edited by Lionhart94010 on Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jimmy111
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Joined: October 05, 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Wyoming
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Type 3 motor would probably work better.
DTM is Jakes down the middle cooling system. |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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again im very new to VW
can you tell me what a DTM is? |
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rearenddude
Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2008
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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wow, i asked for opinions and i got them.
but let me be clear, i do not doubt the stock type 1 cooling system in a car designed for it, however my car came stock with a water-cooled engine.
as with a beatle the fiat also required air "closure" around the motor to direct the air flow correctly, however this is prooving to be a difficult task.
It would be a simpler task if the fan drew its incoming air from the generator side.
so therfore my question in reguards to the Porche style system.
prehaps i should ask if anyone has made a type 1 system draw air from the generator side? |
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