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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| dr. no wrote: |
Sorry, we don't get a lot of snow...
They're OK in rain, though. |
Thanks Mr. Dr. No.
We get about one or two "dumps" (not much in reality) Mostly rain.
Of course now I'm thinking about the lack of ground clearance I've created with my 15* I4 conversion. Maybe 15's with taller tires would be of use. Higher gearing a little more clearance.
Hmmm......
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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dr. no
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Santa Fe
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, we don't get a lot of snow...
They're OK in rain, though.
_________________
Scott
http://lungehphoto.com
'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant
'09 Jetta SportWagen TDI
'06 MB Sprinter
'86 Iltis
'89 Isuzu Trooper
PAST VWs:
'82 NA diesel Vanagon
'86 7-passenger Vanagon
'77 Bay
'71 Bay
'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
'91 Fox |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| dr. no wrote: |
Okay, stilll getting some apples-to-oranges comparisons.
I'm just going to plug (again) proper size and stiffness. My Vanco 8s are *stock* width also. This makes a huge difference in steering, especially without power steering, and I haven't noticed any significant change in braking (which is the main justification for wider tires--they also increase the coefficient of rolling friction). Crosswind performance is more like a normal car, compared to needing to hold the wheel at 30-40 degrees to track straight. And just for the cost of the tires.
YMMV, something to consider.
(If I had bought new wheels I would justify them, too.) |
So the Vancos make the steering (manual) easier? Good to hear that. One thing the mechanic (who did some initial work on Westy before i got greezy...) pointed out when he installed a couple of Nexens. Shame on me for putting 2 more on! 
How are the Vanco8's in rain/snow?
Thanks for the apples to apples!
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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dr. no
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Santa Fe
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, stilll getting some apples-to-oranges comparisons.
I'm just going to plug (again) proper size and stiffness. My Vanco 8s are *stock* width also. This makes a huge difference in steering, especially without power steering, and I haven't noticed any significant change in braking (which is the main justification for wider tires--they also increase the coefficient of rolling friction). Crosswind performance is more like a normal car, compared to needing to hold the wheel at 30-40 degrees to track straight. And just for the cost of the tires.
YMMV, something to consider.
(If I had bought new wheels I would justify them, too.)
_________________
Scott
http://lungehphoto.com
'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant
'09 Jetta SportWagen TDI
'06 MB Sprinter
'86 Iltis
'89 Isuzu Trooper
PAST VWs:
'82 NA diesel Vanagon
'86 7-passenger Vanagon
'77 Bay
'71 Bay
'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
'91 Fox |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Possibly the .5" difference (depending on tire choice) in tire "height" *may* not make the biggest difference.
Neil. |
Yeesh.
I mean .5" difference *per side*. (depending on 15" tire choice. YMMV. Batteries not included.)
And thanks for the help!
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Some interesting input here guys.
What I've surmised:
A Vanagon will never be totally stable in severe crosswinds.
One should at least inspect the suspension components before installing larger wheels/shorter sidewalls as a "solution".
Possibly the .5" difference (depending on tire choice) in tire "height" *may* not make the biggest difference.
Still on the fence. I'll decide when I get this Westy on the road with the "new" engine!
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
There are some really impressive setups on this site.. some are racing grade.. but you have to do decide whats important to you.
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Well for sure my ride is NOwhere near a race grade, (or a prize.... to *look* at) but with the "new" Jetta 2.0 I installed, if going faster is *needed* from time to time, better tires would help.
But then the Nexens on there now, are not great tires so evne just getting better 14's would be an improvement.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Onion wrote: |
| BTW - I don't have power steering and it does take a little bit more "work" driving around the city at lower speeds and parallel parking... I can feel it, but it is not bad and it by far offset by the performance change on the highway. |
Good to know. Thanks.
And thanks for more insight into your upgrade. For sure, it's basically the cost of the wheels in my case too as the Nexens have to go regardless.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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kevinbassplayer
Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Nor-Cal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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Will I be happy I upgraded?
Yes |
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tschroeder0
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Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 2098
Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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"do I NEED to upgrade to 15"
No. |
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Onion
Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 45
Location: SF, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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BTW - I don't have power steering and it does take a little bit more "work" driving around the city at lower speeds and parallel parking... I can feel it, but it is not bad and it by far offset by the performance change on the highway.
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'85 Vanagon Adventurewagen |
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Onion
Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2008
Posts: 45
Location: SF, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
I think you're hitting the nail square on the head.. Does 1/2" of wheel radius make that big a difference?.
I just don't beleive it does.. not when you factor in ALL the other variables.
New rubber, new shocks, serviced and new steering components, swaybars, bearings, etc.
Arguably lowering the spring height wil accomplish much the same thing for handling improvement.. but that's not going to be cheap either.. and then you lose ground clearance.
But by the time you tackle ALL that you have 3 or 4k into the van.
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I was already doing 4 new tires... so the incremental cost for me was just the rims <$500 with upgrading the spare too (which I could definitely have saved money on - and you could save that option for a future date when you have more cash.)
The 4 tires I replaced were not "new" but I don't think that the age of the sidewalls would change the ride or stability of the vehicle? They were LT tires with reinforced sidewalls, but probably not as nice as the Agilis.
I haven't made any other changes to suspension or steering. I really did go into this as a total skeptic, and I really am very happy with the noticeable difference.
As an example: I have driven across the bay bridge in a crosswind both before and after - and I felt much more relaxed and less afraid of getting pushed out of my lane with the 15" wheels. If I still had the 14" wheels, I could still cross the bay bridge and go where I wanted to go... the new wheels are not a necessity.
I am honestly not saying this to try to convice myself that I made the right decision - if I didn't feel a difference I would happily tell you that I wasted my money. Likewise, if I didn't do the upgrade I am sure that my happiness with my vehicle would not be diminished... it would still do what it does best. In my mind the question is about your financial position and an elusive calculation of the return on an investment in new tires. In my experience the return is clearly there, and now that the money is already gone... I can say it was worth the investment 
Once again... good luck... but look at it as a win win either way, because you're just taking care of your beloved vanagon.
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riceye
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Joined: March 09, 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Caledonia, WI
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: |
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Hey Neil,
I was in the same quandry last spring when I needed new tires. I bit the bullet and switched from 205/70R-14 to 225/60-16. I decided upon the 16" to make the most significant change in sidewall height. That, and there was a set of perfect GW 16's offered to me at a good price. I've been very pleased with the change. Even my wife, who often puts the kibosh on my "frivilous spending", agreed that the difference in the ride, especially with regard to crosswind buffeting, was worth the $700 that we spent on the wheels and tires.
I had the good fortune to log over 10,000 miles last year, traveling from the midwest to both the right and left coasts. Nothing but smiles about the tire and wheel choice.
Your concerns are very valid. The same questions I asked, actually. Let's take a look:
| Quote: |
| does the shorter sidewall, comparing similar quality tires, make *that* much difference. |
Absolutely. No comparison. While I still can feel the crosswinds, they don't rip the wheel from my hands or leave my dog staggering like she's standing on a surfboard.
| Quote: |
| One other deciding factor for me is how common is a good LT 14" or 15"? i.e. stuck in "Salt Lick" ____? looking for that 15". Would finding a 14" be easier? But then that's why we carry a spare right? |
The 15" are a far more common size, and much easier to locate should the need arise. The reinforced 14" are, one at a time, disappearing from the marketplace. Were you to select a major manufacturer's 15" tire, you would have less of a problem locating a replacement in an off-the-beaten-track destination should the need arise.
A couple of other details:
My van is a 2wd, and my spare is an old (unused, and still in great shape) Continental. I think it is actually the original! Surprisingly, the diameter is almost dead-on the same as the 225/60-16. I know that should I need to use the spare, the 16" would be in the passenger compartment until I could resolve whatever issue had come up. If you have a Syncro, your needs may differ. Honestly, I would have no problem using my spare, as close as the actual diameter is as I stood them up together and compared. Oh, and I do carry a set of the stock lugs and nuts to use with the steelie spare.
The other bit that I will share is that my tires are 5% larger than stock, but I have not had issue with a loss of performance. In fact, I'm rather happy that my engine speed is only about 3800 rpm at 75 mph. My speedo is now 3 mph low (confirmed by gps) at 70 mph.
Best wishes, and happy traveling!
Ric
_________________
'87 Westy Weekender - daily driver on salt-free roads
There's gonna be some changes made.
“I find that things usually go well right up until the moment they don't.” - Ahwahnee
"Quality isn't method. It's the goal toward which the method is aimed." - Socrates, later quoted by R.M. Pirsig |
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Rodknock
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 516
Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Here's a fairly good apples to apples story for you. I changed out my stock shocks (all 4) to Bilsteins HD. My old stock shocks were working fine with about 50,000 miles on them. Stock wheels and Mich. tires properly rated, all other suspension parts in great shape. The difference? You have to be really paying attention to notice. The Westy does not feel like it is going to explode when hitting a pothole, smoother now. It handles crosswinds better. But, you have to be Westy-anal to notice it. Probably should have worn out my stock shocks first, and that's what I am doing now with two sets 14" tires (winter/summer) to wear out. I drove a Westy with 15" wheels recently and the handling was slightly better than mine, but it was not huge. |
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j_dirge
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Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 4641
Location: Twain Harte, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:17 am Post subject: |
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There are several LT14s avaialble.. but you can't find nifty looking psuedo-offroad tires easily.
And this is what it really comes down to... Its gonna cost $1000 or more to do 15s and new tires properly.. or you will be doing a fair amount of work on used 15s (See Loogy's thread)
It is not an inexpensive upgrade.
I think you're hitting the nail square on the head.. Does 1/2" of wheel radius make that big a difference?.
I just don't beleive it does.. not when you factor in ALL the other variables.
New rubber, new shocks, serviced and new steering components, swaybars, bearings, etc.
Arguably lowering the spring height wil accomplish much the same thing for handling improvement.. but that's not going to be cheap either.. and then you lose ground clearance.
But by the time you tackle ALL that you have 3 or 4k into the van.
There are some really impressive setups on this site.. some are racing grade.. but you have to do decide whats important to you.
I faced your exact situation about 1.5-2 yrs ago but my front tires were getting pretty bad (Bridgestone Duellers which seem to wear VERY fast upfront on these vans). And I decided I did not want to spend $1,000+ dollars.. not just yet. I went and bought Capitol 14 inch tires with the proper load rating. All up, with realignment, cost $200 or so.. And I'm good for another 5 yrs plus while I decide which wheels I want and the brakes and the shocks.. well.. you get the idea.
I simply decided the benefit was not worth $800+ and it wasn't worth rushing in to... not when I still had so many other decisions to still make.
Last edited by j_dirge on Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10497
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| j_dirge wrote: |
I am planning on using 15" wheels in the future, too.
But the primary reason to allow installation of bigger brakes.
I am dubious of the enhanced performance of 15" wheels and tires over 14s.. no doubt there may be a tad more stability in a shorter sidewall.
I've driven the bay window, an early aircooled vanagon, and now an 89 Westy.. the single biggest factor in roadhandling is speed.
The current van (the 89) drives remarkably well now that I have a new steering rack installed (removed a great deal of slop in the steering) and I have newish 185r14s on the front with a recent alignment.. I leave them inflated lower in the city and when I go HWY on a trip I inflate to just under max.
It gets less fun when I try and drive faster than 60ish, though.
. but the engine is working too hard at speeds over 60 anyway.. solution? Slow down.
Crosswinds suck no matter what.. and even GoWesty admits that new wheel and tires do very little to improve handling in gusty crosswinds.
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| dr. no wrote: |
| Is the difference between 14" and 15" new, reinforced sidewalls that much? I just want to know from someone who's compared new to new on the same vehicle without changing anything else. (Not "my new bigger stiffer tires are SO much better that my small worn-out passenger tires before I changed the shocks") |
This is what I'm really curious about. The points made above make sense to me.
Though Onion posted a 14" to 15" comparison, I guess it's kind of hard to find examples of those who have compared new 14" to new 15" (or more likely 14" used to 15" new) I imagine, but that's what I'm looking for.
i.e. does the shorter sidewall, comparing similar quality tires, make *that* much difference.
I guess I should have a look at my local tire shop. Just to eyeball what the difference looks like. Given the same over all wheel + tire diameter, the difference in sidewall height between a 14" and 15" is .5" per side? Does that really make a difference? I don't know.....
On my '81 Westy, upgrading to the big brake kit would be great. But then the older models require a little more $ for the parts to fit the kit up front.
Hmmmm......
One other deciding factor for me is how common is a good LT 14" or 15"? i.e. stuck in "Salt Lick" ____? looking for that 15". Would finding a 14" be easier? But then that's why we carry a spare right?
Hmmmm......
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
(VW Gas I4)
1988 Westy DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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dr. no
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2004
Posts: 579
Location: Santa Fe
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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How about "gee, I wish I still had that $600". How much is it worth? Is it that much better? Is the difference between 14" and 15" new, reinforced sidewalls that much? I just want to know from someone who's compared new to new on the same vehicle without changing anything else. (Not "my new bigger stiffer tires are SO much better that my small worn-out passenger tires before I changed the shocks")
_________________
Scott
http://lungehphoto.com
'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant
'09 Jetta SportWagen TDI
'06 MB Sprinter
'86 Iltis
'89 Isuzu Trooper
PAST VWs:
'82 NA diesel Vanagon
'86 7-passenger Vanagon
'77 Bay
'71 Bay
'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
'91 Fox |
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sc-surfer
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Joined: May 16, 2005
Posts: 865
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Chester!!!
While I could spend all day talking about how much better the 15s are, I've NEVER heard anyone say 'gee, I wish I still had my 14s'
Well put!
_________________
'89 Syncro Westy
Catalog of Vans at SDM 2010
Westfalia, Syncro & Tristar Reproduction decals here.
* * * Coming Soon: Washable seat covers for westy bench seat...keep the pets off the upholstery! * * * |
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kevinbassplayer
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Joined: June 15, 2006
Posts: 1041
Location: Nor-Cal
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| I've got the Van-cafe 15" Mercedes clones with Mich Hydro-edge tires and Bilsteins, WOW what a difference this made from stock 14" and crappy blown out shocks, once you make the change you'll wonder why you even questioned it, better cornering, handling, and cross wind ride |
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Crughy
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Joined: July 12, 2004
Posts: 576
Location: Montreal, Qc
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| Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Simple physics: for a same wheel diameter, the more height of rubber, the less stable it will be (if both tire have reinforced sidewalls). So the higher the sidewall, the less stable it will be.
The compromise is a harder ride with a smaller sidewall (and hence bigger mag).
I went to 16' for that reason.
JP |
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