Auto Tranny - intermittent 2nd to 3rd upshift - Rebuild

[autotech_ken]

This is an old post but we are experiencing a no 3rd gear engagement on our 86 auto trans in the Vanagon. The PO rebuilt the trans using a std rebuild kit the old basket clutch plates were in a box and were totally worn . He seemed pretty sharp but in same breath we had problems with the trans slipping in 2-3rd . We have had the valve body down twice now it all looks good however pressures were off we questioned if the two similar pressure adjusters may have been swapped and he confirmed maybe so . Swapping them cleaned up the slipping, and were able to get 3rd.
1st initial test drive all seemed good at highway speeds - however to get 3rd required a pedal off to engage 3rd and there is no kick down however the motor side adjuster is set correct for kick-down. The Front side adjustment confirms the spring loaded detent engages in the detent positions properly.

After the 15 minute highway test we pulled over and stopped and let it sit a few minutes as started smelling trans fluid but no dripping maybe a small leak at tans cooler hose connection. On the drive home no 3rd gear, we had to nurse it on back roads running only in 2nd. We pulled valve body again all looked clean put it back in. backed off 2nd gear brake band still no 3rd . maybe brake band needed to be turned in? Post in this thread suggested turn it out 2 turns.

At this point we may end up taking the trans out and going through the whole thing. One interesting point was the valve body didn't quite match the Bentley it maps to an 090 trans but the "housing apply valve 1st -Rev" was considerably smaller than shown in the Bentley for the 090 010 trans images.? Any thoughts before we pull the trans? Thanks Ken in NC

[hatchb4ck]

To anyone and everyone looking at this thread for help with their auto trans rebuild. I am sorry that the images are broken.

I have created a new thread with the my posts from this thread that had images.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=758655
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[xflyer]

I know this is an old thread. (there should be an icon or abbreviation for that).
I'll put in my 2 cents from more than 25 years of work done on VW auto transaxles.
First about the shifting problem, 2nd to 3rd, or any other full auto Vanagon shift problem, such as a lag time before a gear will engage when shifted out of P or N often worse when cold. Make sure all adjustments are correct. The shift cable from the lever to the trans has to work correctly. Make sure none of the parts, cable, lever (the one you move when driving), and cable housing are not damaged, bent, etc. The cable/rod is adjustable at the front, page 37.3 in Bentley. If that is a little off the shifter may look like it's in D, but it's a little bit towards 2.
Check the accelerator/throttle rod from the trans lever to the throttle body. Usually this only involves getting full throttle on the engine and the downshift/kickdown on the trans. However I've seen plenty of vans, Bay window and Vanagon, where this is off a little and causes all sorts of weird shifting problems. Yes I know, most of the Bay window automatics don't have the rod so check the vacuum modulator.
Most common though is that the trans is just worn out. The photos on this thread and a good read of the Bentley will show that there are many seals, O-rings and clutches in the auto trans. These should all be replaced along with all the bushings, and thrust washers whether they are metal or plastic.
You can get rebuild kits from suppliers with all this stuff for under $200. Also get some TransGel or similar auto trans assembly lube. This will help hold those thrust washers in place and make getting lip seals and O-rings in without damage.
Those seals and O-rings will get hard over time and wear a little. A tiny amount of leakage makes the trans shift wrong or not at all.
Similar with the clutches. The repair books give wear limits to check on these. Don't waste your time. If the trans is 10 years old or has more than 80-100K miles, replace all the friction and steel plates with new. All the parts might be within spec, but still not work correctly.
And a few words of caution to those contemplating working on a full auto trans for the first time.
Make sure that you have the time and space to do this. Recheck your moves with the Bentley at each step. Cleanliness is very important. A tiny piece of shop towel or dirt in the wrong place will mean you will have to take it back out and start over. You need an area to spread out all the parts as was done in this thread without getting in anybody's way. I have seen a tech clean and lay out a whole collection of parts for assembly only to have someone walk by and without looking grab a shop towel out from under them to wipe their hands, scattering the parts everywhere. Also unless there is a lot of junk/wear particles/debris inside I would suggest to leave the valve body assembled. There are many small parts, springs, plungers, etc inside. Even though they may look the same they are usually different in some way. If they get switched around the trans may have worse shifting than when you started. Clean it off from the outside and bolt it back on. If you have to you can remove it without taking the trans out. These transmissions are all mechanical/hydraulic pressure shifted. I have seen weird shifting problems cured by switching the valve body from another trans of the same type. That was when there was no detectable wear or broken parts in the valve body.
Not trying to throw anyone off here. This same basic trans, with different final drive units, was used in many different VW, Audi, and other vehicles from 1968 through the 1990s.
Thousands of them get rebuilt every year and most of those actually work!
So if you have some good mechanical skills, time and a lot of patience you can do it too.
And don't get into a big tizzy over the fluids. I was at the FLAPS recently and after reading some questions about that on threads here, I looked at a bottle of the latest ATF Dexron/Mercon VI. It had in the description that it was good for anything that needed Dexron V, IV, III, II, and a bunch of other specs and part numbers. Similar with the final drive (diff/ring and pinion) lube, most any 90 GL-5/MIL2105B gear oil will be fine. Also 75W-90, 80W-90, 80W-85-90 will also be fine. The "W" means a "winter" grade, which means it will not thicken as much when temps get below 25F (-5C). Obviously this is better in areas that get those temps.
And don't get me started on the "The GL-5 gear oil will ruin your synchronizers". Never saw that happen in over 30 years of overhauling and repairing VW and Porsche manual shift transaxles.
If I read that again I'll have to wrap my head in aluminum foil and dance under the full moon to ward off the evil synchronizer destroyers.
_________________
1989 Campmobile, 1984 7 passenger beater Vanagon
Both with cool A/C

[FalcorWesty]

My transmission had been leaking ATF out of the torque converter oil seal for a couple weeks. At the tail-end of my last trip it slowly became more and more difficult to get into 3rd gear. By the time I brought it in, the van would not shift out of 2nd into 3rd gear at all.

The shop dropped the transmission, replaced the leaking seal, did some cleaning, replaced the governor cover and 2nd gear brake bands o-rings. The 2nd gear brake band was then adjusted to the factory setting of 2.5 turns (per Bentley). I picked it up and started driving, shifting was extremely smooth and I had 3rd gear again! Once the transmission got to full temp (~35 minutes of highway driving) the van started to downshift into 2nd again.

I dropped the van back off and the shop is looking into adjusting the governor and the 2nd gear brake band. Is there anything else that might be recommended? I don’t believe the shop re-filled with Type-F so I will do that when I get her back as well. It looks like hatchb4ck had a similar issue but no obvious root cause.

[Terry Kay]

If for some reason you don't care for the long term ( 45 years) results direct from the Labs of TK, then you can run the Blue B&M Hydro Trick Shift.
Please notice it's compatible with any gear box prior to 97, and also "meets or exceeds Type F requirements.

Why?
All's the stuff is, is dyed blue type F.

I have never had a trans fail due to clutch plate failure or burning using type F.

Do some more internet parusing & studying, it's all good practical experience.






80259 - B&M Trick Shift Trans Fluid



Pour In Performance!


Ideal for racing, performance street, RV and heavy duty applications.
Not an additive!
Works with all transmissions when a firmer shift is desired on 1997 and earlier vehicles. Not recommended for 1998 & newer applications.
B&M Trick Shift Performance Automatic Transmssion Fluid (ATF) is the easiest way to firm up your transmission's shift performance. Not an additive, this safe and effective blend of extreme pressure agents and foam inhibitors will provide a noticeable shift improvement when you replace your existing automatic transmission fluid with Trick Shift. Ideal for street use and high load applications such as racing, off-road, towing and heavy duty fleet use. Trick Shift may be mixed with other types of ATF but works best by itself. With B&M Trick Shift you can literally ''pour in performance''. Meets or exceeds Type F requirements.

View in Current Catalog


B&M #130-80259

Trick Shift, 1-Quart


$4.69
_________________
T.K.

[vanaru]

Read this thread and caught mention of using type F fluid... why would you use a fluid that is not recommended for the application?

The Kay Test facility seems to have success... But...

Type F ATF is specifically designed for use in automatic
transmissions in passenger cars and light trucks manufactured
by Ford Motor Company prior to 1977, and in many 1977-1981
models. It is formulated to provide the proper frictional
characteristics for positive shifting with little or no slippage. It has
excellent oxidation resistance and thermal stability at high
temperatures to minimize sludge and varnish formation, and
provide long service life. It provides good wear protection,
protects against rust and corrosion, and has good foam
resistance. It also has good low-temperature properties for easier
shifting in cold weather.
Applications
Type F ATF is recommended for service fill in all automatic
transmissions that require a fluid meeting the requirements of
Ford Specification ESW-M2C33-F. It also is recommended for
use in many Borg-Warner automatic transmissions and older
Ford power steering units, as well as in the hydrostatic drive
systems and hydraulic systems of certain farm equipment.
Type F ATF is not recommended for use in transmissions that
require any other type of automatic transmission fluid besides
Type F.
Type F ATF meets or exceeds the requirements of:
• Ford ESW-M2C33-F (obsolete)
Features/Benefits
• Proper frictional properties for transmissions that require a
fluid with high static friction
• Excellent oxidation resistance and thermal stability
• Protects against sludge and varnish formation
• Protects against wear
• Protects against rust and corrosion
• Good low-temperature properties
• Good seal compatibility
• Good foam resistance

[hatchb4ck]

Along the lines of what rsxsr says, those seals can be difficult to remove. In my instance, I wasn't having any problems with that seal so I did not tamper with it. Obviously, some are going to slam me for not replacing it, but that was a decision I chose to make.

With respect to resetting bearing preload and ring gear/pinion endplay, I did not dissamble that portion of the differential. From reading through the bentley, I believe this can be done but it looks like some special tools are used at different stages of the differential re-assembly to assist in the adjustments.

I know those answers aren't much help, my apologies.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[MarkWard]

You should not have to reset the ring and pinion depth and bearing preloads if you don't change any hard parts in the differential section. You do need to mark the side covers under the drive flanges and count the number of turns if you remove them to disassemble the differential. If only changing the differential seals you should not need to adjust anything. As mentioned in the tear down, there are shims between the automatic section and the differential. That measurement should be remade when overhauling the automatic section. If you intend to replace the governor lip seal, buy two. They are recessed if I remember and a bit of a pain to remove and install correctly without factory tools, but can be accomplished. Regards

[VWGeorge]

Hatch4ck,

Great job! I had to go through the same thing shortly after the purchase of our 81 Westy. I rebuilt the AT section only and found it to be really easy. I have a few questions...
1. How did you remove/Install the Governer seal (I may have missed something in the post)?
2. Did you have to check/reset ring and pinion and/or diff bearing pre-load?

[hatchb4ck]

@jrobewesty, sorry to hear that your transmission has started having problems. If your going to swap the internals from the audi trans into your vanagons trans, I would suggest disassembling and cleaning the valve body along with inspecting all the parts that you are installing. Follow that with checks of the endplay prior to re-installing on the differential. Also, get your torque converter rebuilt or order one and use your current one as a core.

Just a heads up for anyone who has been wondering how the transmission is running. I've been on a vacation road trip for the last week and a half. After over 2K miles in some pretty hot weather and some mountain driving, the transmission is still shifting very good.

Other issues have popped up on the trip un-related to the trans (gas tank/fuel pump).
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[JeffRobenolt]

MY TURN, today mine won't shift into 3rd.

This spring I noticed clutch pack material on the filter screen. I knew it was a matter of time, I have put 3500mi since then.

I found a Audi trans, but it is a non turbo so it has a 3 pinion plantary gear but it has the extra clutch.

Jeff
_________________
For OEM Subaru and SixStar parts and harness modications
AVsubaruconversions.com

[hatchb4ck]

To be honest, I didn't find any obvious source of the shifting problem such as a torn seal lip or hard seal material.

There were a few things that *may* have caused it.

1. One of the outer splined plates in the forward clutch assembly showed much more wear than any other outer splate (1st/Reverse, Direct/Reverse, or Forward). This is the only outer splined plate that showed any wear at all.

2. The aforementioned amount of "debris" around the seal of the Forward Clutch piston. This was the only place where I found "debris" around the piston seal.

3. The valve body had "sediment" throughout, but I didn't find any stuck or sticking valves.

Basically, I didn't find anything definitive that would have caused the problem.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[MarkWard]

hatchb4ck, I hate to ask this, but did you ever determine what was causing the intermittent 2nd to 3rd upshift?

[morymob]

Good job,i had a '84 auto for a couple yrs and it worked as smooth as new,liked it better thana std. Now if your wife will finally admit u aren't crazy after all try to get it in writing ,as long as u have wbx's it might come in handy later.

[hatchb4ck]

Forward Clutch Assembly Tear Down

The disassembly of the Forward Clutch starts much the same way as with the Direct/Reverse clutch. With the removal of a circlip. This circlip is important as it is used to set endplay for the assembly. Different thicknesses of this circlip are available to set the endplay to the proper specifications. In my case, the installation of new inner and outer splined plates put the endplay back into spec. Had I needed one, German Transaxle had indicated that they would be able to provide a circlip with the proper thickness for a reasonable cost.

I attempted to remove the pressure plate and inner/outer splined plates individually at first, but I couldn’t get enough grip on them. I ended up pulling the forward planetary ring gear instead. As you can see in the picture, verified by the exploded view on page 38.17 of the Bentley, this piece came out with the upper pressure plate and first 3 inner and 2 outer splined plates. The reason for this is that there is a raised ridge on the gear.

With the planetary ring gear removed, I separated the upper pressure plate and inner/outer spline plates from it.

After separating those items, I removed the remaining inner and outer splined plates. For a total of 4 inner and 3 outer splined plates in this assembly, which matches with the bentley’s documentation.

Next was the lower pressure plate. I noted here that this has a flat surface on one side and a sloped surface on the other with a beveled edge. This is so that the pressure plate can ride on top of the diaphragm spring and circlip with the proper clearances.

The diaphragm spring retaining circlip

Followed by the diaphragm spring. There are two versions of this spring. This version is the later style.

The forward piston with the molded seals was the last piece to be removed. This is the first place I noticed anything distinctively different than other parts. In the image you can just see the grey material around the seal. This is comprised of the particles that wear from the inner and outer splined plates. There was a significant amount of this around the sealing lip. I may have just found the cause of my shifting issue.

Finally, the pics of the interior of the clutch drum with all of the parts removed and the parts laid out right to left, bottom to top.

Again, I inspected every piece as it was removed. The two things I noticed was that one of the outer splined plates (steel) showed significant wear and the material around the piston seal.

If you follow the link in my signature below. You can navigate to the galleries. In the gallery "89-vanagon-trans-7" there are a few images of the finished reassembly.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[hatchb4ck]

As promised, albeit a day later than I had hoped. Here are the images from the tear down of the direct/reverse clutch assembly.

First I removed the circlip that holds the pressure plate and inner and outer spline plates within the assembly. I don’t have an image of this when I removed it, so this first image is of the pressure plate. It looks like an outer splined plate but it is substantially thicker and heavier.

Then the inner and outer spline plates are removed. From the Bentley, all models of the 090 have 4 of each. The first one is an inner splined plate (friction) followed by an outer splined plate (steel). I’m only posting images of the first of each removed, but the sequence is alternating for them as they are removed.

Here is an image showing the first circlip, pressure plate, and the splined plates laid out in sequence from right to left.

The next piece to be removed is the second circlip retaining the spring plate “cover”. In the Bentley, page 38.20, it shows a special tool used in a press to take the pressure off the circlip for removal. I don’t have a press or this special tool, so I had to improvise a bit. I took two 18" wood working clamps and place shop towels strategically to prevent any marring or damage to the assembly. I then slowly and as evenly as possible tightened the screw handles down to remove the pressue from the circlip. For all of you who have a better equipped shop than I, please don’t laugh too hard.

This worked well. The only issue that arose from this method was that the space available to remove the circlip was minimal at best. With a bit of patience, I successfully removed the circlip and un-screwed the handles to release the pressure.

I removed the cover and spring plate next followed by the direct/reverse piston with the molded seals.

Here are the parting shots of the direct/reverse clutch drum and the parts laid out in removal sequence right to left, bottom to top.

I want to add a comment about my processes here. Every part that I removed was cleaned and inspected for abnormal signs of wear. I wanted to not only rebuild this transmission with new parts, but also attempt to identify the cause of the problem. In any disassembly of a complex mechanical device, you should inspect everything and make notes as necessary.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[hatchb4ck]

Thanks Terry, I really appreciate the compliment.

If I had to guess, everyone except my wife thought I was crazy for rebuilding the transmission myself.

I guess necessity was the driving factor in this instance. I've probably mentioned this earlier in the thread, but neither the two local VW shops nor the dealers would touch my Vanagon. The two shops only handle older air-cooled stuff and newer front wheel drive VW's. Additionally, none of the transmission shops were familiar with the 090 in this vehicle which made me a bit uneasy about letting them work on it. That and the fact that they don't rebuild transmissions in-house. Everything is farmed out to rebuilt transmission distributors of who-knows-what kind of quality.

With respect to taking the local one back and getting some credit, they said all they would do is send it back to the person who rebuilt it. Which does me no good and I wouldn't trust them to attempt to fix their mistakes. I would rather someone admit they aren't comfortable or have no knowledge of these parts than screw it up and cost me more money.

I will say one thing about the 090, it is a straight forward, fairly simple automatic which is probably the reason for it's strength and durability when serviced properly. I don't think I could say that for the newer electronically controlled auto's (simplicity viewpoint).

A lot of my wrenching experience comes from working on diesel farm implements with hydrostatic drives (combines and tractors). This along with my Avionics training in the Marines taught me how to analyze and use patience to troubleshoot, isolate, and correct problems.

For those who are interested, here are the images of the torque converters side by side. The purple one is from German Transaxle and the black one is the local rebuild. As you can see from this side, they don't look significantly different.

Here is an image with steel ruler laid across the top of the black torque converter showing a slight (1-2 mm max) difference in height. This can be chalked up to differences in the cooling fins.

Now for the good stuff and the source of my issues

Here is the purple one from German transaxle. I am pointing at the depth of the flat surface at the base of the sealing neck. Notice how deep it is from the curve of the torque converter.

Check out the depth of the welded in replacement sealing flange surface

I realize it might be difficult to see, but in person the depth difference is so significant it was immediately noticeable. This difference in depth was enough to cause all of the issues with the mating of the transmission and engine.

To give you an idea of what this caused. If you recall earlier, the depth from the differential mating surface (bell housing if you will) to the back of the torque converter when installed was 10.14mm on the local rebuild. From the bentley, page 37.5, for my transmission this should have been adequate, but it wasn't. All sorts of binding occured.

With the purple converter installed the depth was 16mm. The torque converter spun freely all the way up to when I put the bolts in and torqued them down.

Yes, this issue costed me a week with all the testing, measuring, and ordering of the replacement. Putting me closer than I would have liked to the departure date for my 2 week camping vacation with the family. Yet, I have a much better feeling about it now than before given the supportive responses from the forums and Ken and German Transaxle.

Everyone was a great help.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[Terry Kay]

Joe,

I'll have to say right up fron , you have all kinds of gonads--and the best part is it paid off in spades.

Glad for you that the trans is shifting right.

There is nothing more disparaging to get a gear box back up and bolted --and have something still be wrong.

You did real good---

Good luck at the shop with the funky converter.
_________________
T.K.

[hatchb4ck]

Now for some good news.

HOUSTON, WE HAVE 3RD GEAR!!!

After a bit of a slow start just putting around the neighborhood, I thought all of my work was for naught. But, after about 3-4 miles of driving stop and go around 30-40 mph. The transmission starting shifting 1-2-3 quickly and smoothly.

I took a quick jaunt down the highway (4 miles, maybe) and pulled back onto stop and go streets. Before the rebuild, this would have been where the no-upshift problem would have really started. This time, 1-2-3 up through the gears. I didn't know a Vanagon automatic could shift this smoothly.

With respect to the torque converter comparisons. Once I had both on the workbench, side by side, it was almost immediately apparent what the issue was.

When I had my original torque converter rebuilt locally, they had to cut out the sealing flange/neck and weld in a new one. Well, when they welded in the new one, they didn't set it deep enough. I'll post some pictures tonight that shows the issue.

Again, thanks to everyone who offered assistance and suggestions.

I'll also post the images of the tear down of the forward and direct/reverse clutch assemblies tonight as well, with commentary.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com

[hatchb4ck]

I'll be doing some comparative measurements on the new torque converter and shooting some pictures as I go.

I'll post those as soon as I get the information.
_________________
1960 Ford F100
2016 Moto Guzzi Stornello


www.josephpugh.com