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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42412
Location: at the beach
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 Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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re RAtwell - I can't read Richard's mind but this is my best GUESS what he meant:
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Malokin Martin
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Joined: August 19, 2007
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Location: E-burg
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ratwell wrote: |
| The metal on the magnet is more than normal for 100k miles. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Many folks in the far north do indeed use ATF in their trannys....but are you sure they drain them in the spring and refill them with 90 weight...or are you just assuming that they do?
Most places where this is necessary at all.....do not get much warmer than 40F in the summer....and are freezing again at night.
Also...I know for absolute 100% fact....that ATF WILL destroy the EP lubricity of hypoid gear oil. Been there...done that...several times. |
Gets a lot hotter than that in much of the north country and there is no night for many months so there isn't much in the way of freezing to be had.
ATF will run fine in these boxes, even in much warmer climes. I have run ATF in both 091s and 091-1 that had existing synchronizer problems and were hard to get into gear when running the spec oils. Each of the boxes I have done this to have gotten over 150K miles of additional service, or are still in service. More recently I have gone to running 0W-40 motor oil in lieu of the ATF.
BTW there are GL-4 rated ATF's available these days as well. |
| Greenwood wrote: |
| Running 0-W 40 as auto tranny fluid is not a great idea either. Why?...because though it performs the hydraulic function perfectly well (a fluid is a fluid in that respect), real dedicated auto tranny fluids must resist oxidization, hydraulic shear thinning and oil film failure at temperatures over 450F in the torque converter (in not so odd cases 550F is common). There are no 0-W 40's that meet the temperature and viscosity control level for automatic transmissions. These are some of the hall marks of automatic transmission fluids and why there are so many specific ones. ATF...does not shear-thin or heat thin in exactly the same manner as motor oil. |
Wow, suddenly my 091s and 091-1s have become autoboxes. Nobody mentioned anything about running motor oil in the automatic transmission section of an automatic. I worked in a transmission shop long enough years ago to have a good feel for what standard hypoid gear lubes often do to manual trannys. I don't care what the books say to use, that stuff will often fry the H out of a tranny whereas a tranny in the same service that is filled with motor oil typically looks beautifully clean inside when taken apart. I don't think that I have used hypoid gear lube in any of my non transaxle manual trannys in the last 20 years. As for manual transaxles I am well on my way to eliminating all hypoid gear lube there as well, though the use of a GL-4 rated ATF sounds tempting. If I do swap to a GL-4 rated ATF I won't be able to really give a good opinion for a decade or so, so don't wait up. |
Because of this quote...........More recently I have gone to running 0W-40 motor oil in lieu of the ATF.
I thought you were stating that you were now running 0-W-40 in place of ATF in autoboxes.
My mistake.....and I believe I mentioned that possibility down below....right here as a matter of fact, when I said this..............
"If you were speaking of using synthetic 0-W-40 in the differential section....thats actually a better idea than using ATF"
By differential section, I mean in any differential section for cold weather.
Hypoid lube ..."fry the heck out of the inside of a transmission"?...in what respect? Surface case corrosion is the only vague possibility of that...and that only happens when hypoid oil entrains moisture. That only happens when its used in very humid environments and never gets fully warmed up. Change it more often.
Other than that....what parts are we speaking of "frying"? Don't confuse "shiner" because of detergent properties with properly protected for extreme pressure...which no motor oil on this planet is listed for.
I will ride along on this one and say....you seem to be pretty well versed on what you have figured out to be excellent lubricnats that work for you.
The vast majority of those reading this.....including the gentleman who started the thread are not. Do you want to give this level of specialized lube advice right here wit hteh vast potential of not getting it right?
Maybe you should read up on a few things (i'm not being rude...I had to read up and I'm still not fully up on the world). What I am trying to point out is that there are various additives that do various things in manual transmissions.
The GL ratings are NOT for viscosity they are for EP modifier ratings. Gl-4 and other GL rated oils have no specific viscosity ratings whatsoever. EP additives (extreme pressure additives for hypoid gearing)...generally are also corrosive to the synchro mechanisms. Correct fluids for the use of manual transmissions MUST have the anti-corrosion inhibitors....that GL-4 ATF's ...do need or have. Here is an excerpt I picked up on line that I will find who stated if I can.
Pay close attention to the highlighted areas:
Most GL5 differential and GL4 Manual Transmission oils contain sulfur-phosphorous EP packages. GL4 does NOT refer to any specific viscosity, but it refers to a level of AW/EP protection for the gearing and bearings in a transmission. GL4-rated oils contain about 40% to 60% of the EP additives that GL5 oils contain.
Both differential and manual transmission fluids use chemical compounds that subdue or inhibit the corrosive effects of sulfur and phosphorous such as calcium, magnesium, boron, potassium or other basic compounds. Emulsifiers, corrosion and rust inhibitors also are included to do their respective jobs.
GL5 differential lubes use friction modifiers to reduce mechanical and fluid friction and add some anti-shudder friction modifier for limited slip, both very different chemical compounds.
Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same Friction Modifier chemicals as differential lubes. (Ray edit: they are talking about modern manuals seperate from differentials... not ours)
Most manual transmission "specific" fluids (GL4) contain about 40% to 60% of the EP additive of differential lubes (GL5) with inactive or buffered sulphurs. GL4 has come to infer a gear lube with the above percentages of EP additive. The exception of course is ATF fluid used in some of the newer transmissions.
Therefore, both lubes contain the same EP additives, just in different strengths or additive ratios.
Ever since the synchromesh-type fluids appeared on the scene (such as the GM Synchromesh fluid), drivers have had better shifting due to better synchro engagement, attributed to the specialized friction modifier used in these lubes. This specialized friction modifier is better for metallic and composite synchros in terms of shifting and life.
Manual Transmission fluids use a different friction modifier specifically designed for synchro engagement, a modifier that does NOT contain the same chemical compounds as do differential lubes.
A synchromesh fluid usually refers to a specialized fluid that contains special friction modification additives for transmissions that use mechanical synchronizer assemblies; those synchronizer assemblies may be made of carbon fiber composites, sintered metal.
[b]You also have to consider the viscosity of the fluid that the transmission was designed for. The spectrum now ranges from ATF to 75W90 viscosities and therefore a synchromesh GL4 Manual Transmission Lubricant (MTL) can be any viscosity from 7.0 cSt (ATF equivalent viscosity) to a 75W90 type viscosity of approx. 14.5 cSt, and contains special friction modification additives for synchronizer assembly engagement.
brass/bronze, or steel-steel materials. [/b]
Current MTL GL4 viscosites are:
1. ATF Series - Type; 6.5 to 8.5 cSt (Equivalent ATF viscosity; Note: ATF additive package is weak compared to most GL 4's)
2. Synchromesh Series -Type; 9.3 - 9.5 cSt (such as Amsoils MTF, Texaco's MTL, Pennzoil's Synchromesh, GM and Chrysler's Synchromesh)
3. 75W85 Series-Type; 9.8 to 11.5 cSt ( Redline's MTL, RP's Synchromax LT, Nissan's MTL, Honda MTL, Castrol Syntorq LT)
4. 75W90 Series-Type; 12.8 to 14.5 cSt (Amsoil's MTG, Redline's MT-90).
MTL specific lubes we're developed for manual tranny's and transaxles, and not for differentials or industrial gear boxes. A differential lube may not kill your tranny, but it is not the optimum lube for it. A diffy 75W90 (GL5) usually has a higher viscosity than does an mtl in the same advertized weight.
All I'm saying....is that with the potentially rusted ass gear box this gentleman has....which could mean pitted bearings, needles, gear faces etc......using a fluid of a viscosity that the box was not designed for is not optimum.
GL-4 ATF fluids...I am not that knowledgeable about....but what I do know is that "GL-4"...does notspecify viscosity....and viscosity is very important with a hypoid gearbox. Also bear in mind...that many front drive transmissions are NOT hypoid gearing and can use a much differnt oil package than a hypoid box like ours. I'm just stating that....in case anyone gets the idea that they can use the same GL-4 manual gearbox lubricant that their modern car uses. It aint necessarily so.
I am actually impressed that they make ATF's with GL-4 ratings of EP additives. I learn something new all the time. I still would not use them in my gearbox unless I could verify viscosity and anti-corrosion properties for ALL of the parts in the box.
Its also worth it bear in mind.....while reading that excerpt....that the gentleman writing is largely speaking of American rear drive cars. You can tell this because he notes.....differences in oils for differentials...and manual gearboxes. In any car with a rear drive and seperate differential from the gear exchange box...you can run whatever is friendliest inside with the gears. many are straight cut and the rest are skew bevel....none of them are semi-hypoid (types 1,2,3) or fully hypoid (type 4 and autobox type 3 and 4). because of having both types of gears in our transmissions...we have to have specific viscosities and additive packages. We run differntial oil through the whole thing.
Oh! found it. this is a great thread. you should read it all. There are lots of wear and EP concerns with using ATF's in manual trannys. Ray
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1231182 |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| No...metal filings like that are NOT normal. You should have little or no normal wear on gear faces. The only real wear parts in the tranny....if its running well....are non-magnetic. Those look like what you get when you have destroyed bearing cages. |
It is reasonably normal to have ferrous debris in a trans. Most Synco hubs are ferrous and although the brass cones engage, there is some wear on the hubs. Also where the shifter forks ride the hubs there can be ferrous wear. Last small itsy bitsy parts wear on the gears over time and that shows up too on the magnetic trap.
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Last edited by SGKent on Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Many folks in the far north do indeed use ATF in their trannys....but are you sure they drain them in the spring and refill them with 90 weight...or are you just assuming that they do?
Most places where this is necessary at all.....do not get much warmer than 40F in the summer....and are freezing again at night.
Also...I know for absolute 100% fact....that ATF WILL destroy the EP lubricity of hypoid gear oil. Been there...done that...several times. |
Gets a lot hotter than that in much of the north country and there is no night for many months so there isn't much in the way of freezing to be had.
ATF will run fine in these boxes, even in much warmer climes. I have run ATF in both 091s and 091-1 that had existing synchronizer problems and were hard to get into gear when running the spec oils. Each of the boxes I have done this to have gotten over 150K miles of additional service, or are still in service. More recently I have gone to running 0W-40 motor oil in lieu of the ATF.
BTW there are GL-4 rated ATF's available these days as well. |
| Greenwood wrote: |
| Running 0-W 40 as auto tranny fluid is not a great idea either. Why?...because though it performs the hydraulic function perfectly well (a fluid is a fluid in that respect), real dedicated auto tranny fluids must resist oxidization, hydraulic shear thinning and oil film failure at temperatures over 450F in the torque converter (in not so odd cases 550F is common). There are no 0-W 40's that meet the temperature and viscosity control level for automatic transmissions. These are some of the hall marks of automatic transmission fluids and why there are so many specific ones. ATF...does not shear-thin or heat thin in exactly the same manner as motor oil. |
Wow, suddenly my 091s and 091-1s have become autoboxes. Nobody mentioned anything about running motor oil in the automatic transmission section of an automatic. I worked in a transmission shop long enough years ago to have a good feel for what standard hypoid gear lubes often do to manual trannys. I don't care what the books say to use, that stuff will often fry the H out of a tranny whereas a tranny in the same service that is filled with motor oil typically looks beautifully clean inside when taken apart. I don't think that I have used hypoid gear lube in any of my non transaxle manual trannys in the last 20 years. As for manual transaxles I am well on my way to eliminating all hypoid gear lube there as well, though the use of a GL-4 rated ATF sounds tempting. If I do swap to a GL-4 rated ATF I won't be able to really give a good opinion for a decade or so, so don't wait up. |
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zadefaraj
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Joined: March 29, 2009
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Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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I went ahead and topped up with fresh GL-4 gear oil. It still has a bit of trouble getting into 1st and 2nd, but every other gear is fine. The shifter has felt harder to locate gears since the flood, but I will assume thats due to wonky bushings unless anyone else can chip in. I'm going to run it with this oil for a week then drain it out, and possibly take it down and strip it apart to have a good look at the internals. I'll post more pics if and when I get to that stage.
Thanks again!
zade |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:18 am Post subject: |
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If its a Gl-4 rated ATF...thats a gear oil because its EP.
That is also not your average ATF. Different story.
Whats interesting is you saying you run 091's with ATF and getting high miles.
Ok...then what ATF were you running?...because your average Dexron II, IIE and III which is what the average Joe will take away from this conversation... WILL NOT ....safely lubricate any hypoid or semi-hypoid differential when its viscosity drops below that of a standard 90 weight hypoid oil. It flat out is not an EP oil and cannot survive the shear pressure of the gear teeth.
Ok...so if your transmissions do indeed survive on regular type F or Dexron in their differential....in warm weather...then that begs and/or creates the question that gets back to my original point:
At what point does a mixture of both fluids create a problem. It might just be that a mixture of the two causes a severe issue....and not just one or the other exlusively.
But it is 100% widely known and factual....that the addition of small amounts of ATF into hypoid gear oil WILL destroy the differential. Just go down to a transmission shop (especially Audi and VW) and ask how many absolutely smoked differentials they have had to replace due to seal failure in autoboxes. Those diffs are only marginally different than an 091 or a bug. This problem pretty much went away in the mid 90's due to changes in seal design and materials....but it was the absolute scourge of front wheel drive and European combined gearboxes.
Running 0-W 40 as auto tranny fluid is not a great idea either. Why?...because though it performs the hydraulic function perfectly well (a fluid is a fluid in that respect), real dedicated auto tranny fluids must resist oxidization, hydraulic shear thinning and oil film failure at temperatures over 450F in the torque converter (in not so odd cases 550F is common). There are no 0-W 40's that meet the temperature and viscosity control level for automatic transmissions. These are some of the hall marks of automatic transmission fluids and why there are so many specific ones. ATF...does not shear-thin or heat thin in exactly the same manner as motor oil.
If you were speaking of using synthetic 0-W-40 in the differential section....thats actually a better idea than using ATF. Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Many folks in the far north do indeed use ATF in their trannys....but are you sure they drain them in the spring and refill them with 90 weight...or are you just assuming that they do?
Most places where this is necessary at all.....do not get much warmer than 40F in the summer....and are freezing again at night.
Also...I know for absolute 100% fact....that ATF WILL destroy the EP lubricity of hypoid gear oil. Been there...done that...several times. |
Gets a lot hotter than that in much of the north country and there is no night for many months so there isn't much in the way of freezing to be had.
ATF will run fine in these boxes, even in much warmer climes. I have run ATF in both 091s and 091-1 that had existing synchronizer problems and were hard to get into gear when running the spec oils. Each of the boxes I have done this to have gotten over 150K miles of additional service, or are still in service. More recently I have gone to running 0W-40 motor oil in lieu of the ATF.
BTW there are GL-4 rated ATF's available these days as well. |
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Kirk
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:23 am Post subject: |
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I dont know anything about ATF in transmissions. I would fill it up with GL-4, drive it a while, drain it, and refill it. While driving, feel for anything odd. I think it will be fine. You didnt say, is this thing free, you bought it, you had it, what?
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
DO NOT put ATF in the tranny. Yes...it can be used in very cold climates...but only if you remain with that gear oil.
No...metal filings like that are NOT normal. You should have little or no normal wear on gear faces. The only real wear parts in the tranny....if its running well....are non-magnetic. Those look like what you get when you have destroyed bearing cages. |
Many folks in the far north fill their trannies with ATF every winter and drain it come spring and I don't see them falling apart all that fast.
As for the metal filings that really isn't very much, depending on the number of miles on that oil he doesn't have much in the way of filings at all. |
Many folks in the far north do indeed use ATF in their trannys....but are you sure they drain them in the spring and refill them with 90 weight...or are you just assuming that they do?
Most places where this is necessary at all.....do not get much warmer than 40F in the summer....and are freezing again at night.
Also...I know for absolute 100% fact....that ATF WILL destroy the EP lubricity of hypoid gear oil. Been there...done that...several times.
This has been a factual ongoing problem for eons on all ACVW automatics and on all front wheel drive combined units. Its why up until just about 10 years ago....it was required to change the seal between the diff section and transfer case at 7 years or 70K miles. Because ....when that seal fails...as little 4-6 ounces of ATF in the hypoid oil will cause violent failure of the ring and pinion in under a 100 miles.
Long before I knew this...I destroyed two units due to seal failure. The second one had less than 6 ounces of overfill in the diff housing.
The only way you can SAFELY use ATF in a hypoid unit...is to drain it in the spring before weather gets above about 35-40F....fill with 90 weight run it for just a few miles at low speed...drain it again...and refill.
Personally I would repeat that one more time just to be sure its absolutely dilluted to the max if you are not going to employ any solvent washing.
ATF is NOT an EP rated fluid. Why do you think they run ATF in the transfer section of automatics...and then go through all the rigamarole to have two seals, two o-rings and a gasket to separate the ATF from the hypoid 90 oil in the differential....if it was ok to use it there?
By the way....in case you are wondering....the type 2,3 and 4 auto box differentials are all virtually the same design....and virtually the same design as any other 4 speed differential. Same parts. So...they have the same lubrication requirments.
The ONLY reason ATF would ever be run in a hypoid differential is when the outside temp is so cold that even the lightest hypoid gear oils turn into a "gel" that will not flow through roller bearing cages....and prevent synchronizers from operating. At that point....which is usually below -30F.....ATF is roughly the consistancy of 90W-140 gear oil. And...it will still require an EP metallic additive like moly to operate.
If you are not in Northern Canada, Alaska or the rocky mountains....it would not be smart to do this.....as a solution to a transmission that already has rust and potential bearing issues. Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
DO NOT put ATF in the tranny. Yes...it can be used in very cold climates...but only if you remain with that gear oil.
No...metal filings like that are NOT normal. You should have little or no normal wear on gear faces. The only real wear parts in the tranny....if its running well....are non-magnetic. Those look like what you get when you have destroyed bearing cages. |
Many folks in the far north fill their trannies with ATF every winter and drain it come spring and I don't see them falling apart all that fast.
As for the metal filings that really isn't very much, depending on the number of miles on that oil he doesn't have much in the way of filings at all. |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: |
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DO NOT put ATF in the tranny. Yes...it can be used in very cold climates...but only if you remain with that gear oil.
No...metal filings like that are NOT normal. You should have little or no normal wear on gear faces. The only real wear parts in the tranny....if its running well....are non-magnetic. Those look like what you get when you have destroyed bearing cages.
If you really want to make that tranny survive...strip and clean it.
the reason you want to do this...is (a) if any of your bearings has a single rust pit or "fleck" that will trash the bearing in a moderate to short time. Needle bearings and roller bearings do not tolerate rough or pitted surfaces.
Hopefully you have no rust on gear teeth and faces. Those are hard and expensive to replace. The real issue here is not to drive it around with bad or damaged bearings.
Damaged ring and pinion bearings can do far more damage to the mesh and wear of the ring and pinion than even light rust on the faces of the ring and pinion themselves. The spyder gears tolerate no rust specs at all ebcause they will rapidly start wearing the thrust washers....and when those wear that leads to spalling of differential side gears and spyder gears.
ATF does work great because its thinner and a great preservative....but if you do not get every spec of it out of the tranny...it destroys the EP properties of the hypoid gear oil. Just ask anyone who has ever lost the seal between the automatic fluid section of the type 2,3 or 4 automatic tranny...getting as little as 4-6 ounces of tranny fluid into the hypoid gear oil and driving on it. It will literally destroy your ring and pinion in about 100 miles.
You can ONLY use ATF...with an additive package...when you are using the tranny in very cold climates....that do not change. Automatic tranny fluid in warm climates...meaning almost anything sub-artic...does not have the EP properties necessary to support a hypoid or semi-hypoid (which yours is) gearing.
You would need to fully flush this tranny with solvent before putting hypoid oil back in. A mix of the two oils does not hurt bearings, needle bearings or synchros...but it will hurt the final drive ring and pinion. Ray |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I used to do a lot of off road driving and drained out fluid that looked like yours from every few months to a year. Never really had any problems with it. This was on a non VW which was driven weekly but not daily. I have never been above just filling a gear box with Diesel, driving it around the block a time or two and then dumping the Diesel and filling it again with gear lube. |
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Emeritusx
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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ATF is a good idea.. it is the recommended fluid when its colder than -31F..
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fusername
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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I was going to say find something to flush the trans with, but apparently ATF is the ticket. then fill it up with something decent, run it a few weeks, assuming you drive this thing, then fill it with something good and don't worry about it for another 100k.
the trans only has one tiny pinhole for in/out on it, so it doesn't take on much water all that fast. Also most trans will have more metal than that, thats a pretty clean plug.
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| Maybe Ben Pon's ghost comes and vomits NOS stampings for your bus, but not mine! |
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redwagon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| +1 for flushing it with ATF. How on earth did your friend come to flip his bus? Strong crosswind? |
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redwagon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| +1 for flushing it with ATF. How on earth did your friend come to flip his bus? Strong crosswind? |
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Amskeptic
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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In very cold climates, VW has recommended ATF (like 10* below zero) in the manual boxes. I would think a nice short run down the road with some ATF to use as a flush would really help get rid of not only some of the sludge but it would also help blast out rust from bearing races. ATF has excellent detergent properties. Change and refill with GL4 80-90.
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Rusty O'Toole
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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The only problem would be if the bearings were rusted and it's impossible to tell that unless you tear the tranny down.
It's probably OK. It appears some water got in but it settled to the bottom of the tranny until it got mixed in by driving. As long as the bearings were not full of pure water, they are OK.
Drive it and see what happens. 9 chances out of 10 there is no serious damage. |
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zadefaraj
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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cheers guys,
i'll give it a go and post the results. these wonderful things just don't want to die. a good friend of mine just flipped his bus 1.5 times and did a 180 monday coming down from colorado to visit. everything got thrown about as if it were in a blender. but the only thing that broke was the side view mirror. even the front windshield popped out and was put back in without a crack. drove back home that very same day. albeit a bit slower.
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