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burleymotorsports
Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005
Posts: 337
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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 Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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Thank you!
There's no CV joint that will fit the Vanagon, there's always a sealing surface that doesn't match or a spline length issue. I looked for days obsessed with it.
They can be re-ground, but sourcing a new one from scratch is gonna become impossible.
They could be remade for cheap in India, but yuck the quality...
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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dkoesyncro
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2006
Posts: 999
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| Posted: Thu May 02, 2024 6:18 am Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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Excellent write up! I was wondering about those boots, I see they offer some UTV boots in silicone but most are running the 934 CVs.
What does the future hold for the 16” outer CVs? Awhile back I was recovering from an injury and dived in to options. Looked at the Chevy 1500/suburban and a mid era IFS ford explorer/expediton and also a Mercedes G wagen came up having the same spline counts inner and outer but I couldn’t find an IFS G wagen. |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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Aloha all!
Since this is a discussion about CV joints and 28 splines stuff for front and rear, I thought it would be relevant to share my findings about 16" w/locker front outer CV joints, 98mm diameter, 28 splines.
There's been 3 or 4 generations of this CV joint by VW/Löbro GKN, part number 251498099C
Here are screenshots of my Instagram stories @alikamotorsports.
I actually broke a CV cage and was hoping to steal one from an Audi CV joint.
Turns out only the first generation 16" CV's are compatible as far as cage swap, or you have to swap the cage+star into the CV joint.
In my case I had the unpleasant surprise to find out the Audi CV joint had been re-grounded, so the balls were too big to reuse the parts unless I get the 16" grounded as well.
The Audi CV joints are extremely confusing and almost no clear reliable info is out there.
I also learnt during my search that there is a stamped part number on the CV itself that is almost never used by VW or parts sellers online bc they use the part number of the boot+CV joint kit.
What I was looking for is any 98mm Audi CV joint with 28 splines I could buy NOS to steal the cage+ star for repairing my 16" newer CV joint.
One serious craftsman could build a Syncro 16" CV joint with an Audi joint welded onto a 14" CV stub ...
Also it turns out, often the suffix in the part number is for the model with the ABS ring.
Once you understand that, it's easy.
Lemme reveal these findings for you:
The CV joint I had on hand was 447407305B, which didn't turn much online.
The magic trick is to substitute it for 447498099B , boot+CV kit, to obtain search results. I found out that 98mm 28 splines CV joints always have XXX498099 as a part number, but not all are 98mm OD 28 splines.
Again the suffix is for the ABS ring, I think 
This listing on eBay confirmed my logic findings. The box has a different part number than the CV joint.
This one is 443498099B for the kit, 443407305B just for the CV joint.
It ressembles a lot the 447407305B CV joint I have but with 90mm OD and 25 splines, just like the regular Syncro 14" ( or 16" Syncro no front locker)
Another good pick is 443498099 (A for the ABS ring of that same model, B is the short version with ABS ring, I'm not sure there's a short version without ABS ring) One can guess the CV joint only part number might be 443407305
Now onto the work on my 16" CV joint. I'm waiting on the NOS CV joint to fix it still but I had spares 16" CV's for now to get back on the road.
Ok, now it's all uploaded ( flying to SyncroFest 2024 now, the plane has Starlink Internet, amazing!)
In real life the boot doesn't interfere with anything, I'm quite happy with it, I'm sure the fee times I'll be with a wheel in the air at full droop, the slow rotation should be ok to not rip the boot on anything, especially the 3 bolts for the radius rod.
I do have to do the job again though, gonna upgrade to the very expensive NEO HPCC #1 grease from T3TECHNIQUE.
Sh!t's expensive but with Swepco 164, somehow my CV cages front and rear were crying for murder last time I went serious off-roading, never had an issue in Central America. I did use my lockers a lot to pull a F-150 V6 truck out of the mud a few times. These things suck at off-road.
Alika
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2022 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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More info as I recently used the GoWesty 930 stub axles on an 87 Doka 2WD. (091/1 transmission here but same as 094 2WD transmission location)
The stub axles are about 8.5 mm longer.
Basically 10mm minus the little lip which is about 1.5 to 2mm.
The ride height is at 20.25", 514mm, same as my Syncro.
I chose 20.5" axles, which fit perfectly the Syncro, but prove to be a hair too short for the 2WD as the transmission sits higher up in the chassis.
I haven't measured the flange to flange on the 2WD. Ideally a longer axle would be better. 21-3/8" is the next available size, and could be chopped down to the perfect length, not yet determined.
For now I'll add CV spacers and longer screws to see how it goes, but that will increase CV angle which I'm not a fan of...
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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kamzcab86
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 8454
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
The 16" syncro spreader plate is 251501357 but I was thinking the T4 Eurovan should be the same. Funnily it is, but different part number, 701501357.
It's been superceded by 1K0407357D, which I find strange, the Group is different (501 vs 407). |
5xx = rear axle
4xx = front axle
1K0407357D supersedes 443407357, 443407357B and appears in the catalog for:
Volkswagen Transporter 1991-1996 (up to chassis T-199000), front axle
Volkswagen Transporter Syncro 1993-12/1995, rear axle
[Insert a pile of other VWs & Audis here]
1K0407357C (supersedes 1J0407357A; 211501357; 443407357A; 8E0407357) fits:
Volkswagen Transporter 1968-1992
Volkswagen Transporter Syncro 12/1995-2004, rear axle
[Insert a pile of other VWs & Audis here]
701407357 fits and is proprietary for:
Volkswagen Transporter 1996 (from chassis T-200000)-2016*, front axle
(701507357 does not exist in the catalog)
*Online catalog stops at 2016; could be used on later vans.
_________________
~Kamz 
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| derekdrew wrote: |
There is this thing -- sometimes called a "spacer plate" but goes by other names -- that makes it easier to install and uninstall cv joint bolts that often came on the older 100mm CV joints on Vanagon. These spacer plates also help distribute the load when you are using a cv joint boot that has integral metal that covers the bolt holes since this metal is thin. Porsche is adament about using these spacer plates when using anything that covers the CV joint, such as these types of boots. In other cases, the spacer plates are very handy when doing 930 installations in Vanagons because they provide flexibility in the length of the bolts that may be used, merely by acting as a spacer. Another use for them is simply to make the installation and de-installation easier for a reason that escapes me at the moment, but it can be freaky with the bolts falling out and getting grease on them during this procedure, as I recall.
The part number of the spacer plate in Germany is 251 501 357, but this part is not carried in the USA, and it may also be out at VW in Germany. My guess is that Classic Parts in Germany may have some left through. I was able to find out the Porshce part number for these and was able to verify that the Porsche ones are for 108mm joints (930 size) and are not for the earlier 100mm size. The part number of the Porsche part is 911 332 191 00 and you can order it from Auto Atlanta and from other places. The google search query would then be exactly this:
("911 332 191 00" OR "91133219100")
Note the use of the parenthesis and that the OR expression must be capitalized or its boolean function is disabled. Its most important to put the quotes around expressions with spaces in them, but in practice, whether your search phrases have space in them or not, all your google seearches that include numbers should have quotes around the number or else google isn't sure whether to take you seriously.
It threw me for a loup that if you look at the 2nd expression (without spaces) 91133219100 the part number ends in "100" and so I was afraid that is was going to be for 100mm joints instead of 108mm, but it turned out to be for 108mm.
I think these should be regarded as optional unless there is a CV joint boot flange with thin metal between the bolt and the CV joint, or unless you happen to want a spacer of that size with the bolt you chose. Three for each joint means $30 per joint. If you have six joints to do per vehicle plus shipping you could end up spending $200 on these. I suppose you could use as many as 18 per vehicle!!! My guess is that the 930 scene in the USA must have figured out how to make these available for $2 each someplace in California.... I just didn't notice where. I imagine that you could be more sure of the grade of metal and the hardeneing with Porsche part, however.
If you are thinking of using 100mm 944 CV joints, my advice is not to do this even though it is tempting because we have proven time and again that the 100mm size just isn't strong enough. I'll probably double post this into at least one other 930 thread on samba just to make it easeir to find since neither of the two key numbers I have just given you are easy to come up with or find. In fact, I'd like to know who else already came up with these so we can add them to the honor role.
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Some late info for posterity.
The 16" syncro spreader plate is 251501357 but I was thinking the T4 Eurovan should be the same. Funnily it is, but different part number, 701501357.
It's been superceded by 1K0407357D, which I find strange, the Group is different (501 vs 407).
Empi sells it too, 87-5871-0
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Multiman mv
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Joined: January 24, 2017
Posts: 988
Location: Martha's Vineyard, Ma
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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Alright, some little progress as I keep building (slowly) my Syncro.
The following measurements are taken on 14" TD Syncro ( 2WD chassis) with 930 Empi flanges on the transmission and Avery's Aircooled
modified stub axles. One could make a function on a computer, for what it's worth.
Full droop with my shocks:
-555mm from center of hub to wheel arch
-593mm from bolt to bolt on rear shock absorber
-526mm flange to flange.
Horizontal axle set up: ( theorically the shortest distance seen between flanges):
-415mm from center of hub to wheel arch
-440mm from bolt to bolt on rear shock absorber
-516mm flange to flange.
Fully compressed set up ( no spring, contact between LCA and upper bump stop: I added a 15mm piece of plywood since that metal tower bump stop is 85mm long vs 70mm on the 2WD).
-366mm from center of hub to wheel arch
-390mm from bolt to bolt on rear shock absorber
-519mm flange to flange.
I have 20-1/4" splined shafts, 507mm from outer clip to outer clip.
The 930 CV joints are 40mm thick.
Their mesured plunge is 15mm.
Fully compressed 930 style axle 490mm ( measured 519mm flange to flange on the van, no axle)
Fully extended 520mm. (measured 526mm flange to flange on the van, no axle). I'm short 3mm each side, but I plan on using limiting straps that are about 35mm shorter than the maximum extended shock absorber measurement of 593mm bolt to bolt), so I call it good enough. I will have 2 weld spots on the back of the CV joint to act as a circlip stop since nobody can do that here). I could always put that stop 3mm inwards and have the axle splines slide a bit.
The shock absorber bolts are M12x1.5x60mm. I will install 80mm bolts with spacers to install the limiting straps.
For info my 930 stub axle is 2mm longer than stock. Empi transaxle flanges measurements have been posted previously, against stock sizes of 16" and 14".
This is the measured maximum stock axle angle out of LCA and driveshaft out of the van. 20 degrees. Full droop, axle touching the LCA. Impossible to replicate in the van since there's more limiting travel on the LCA even with no axle you can't get that low on stock set up.
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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Syncrodelic
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Rockton
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| Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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| Also, does anyone know a supplier for 930 drive flanges? |
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Syncrodelic
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 62
Location: Rockton
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| Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Porsche 930 CV conversion axle length? |
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It looks like I'm able to get my hands on a pair of 24" Empi 930 axles. I believe from what I've read here in this thread that the axles should be 22 7/8" long for the front of a Syncro (someone please correct me if that is not right).
There seems to be lots of spline length on the axles--does anyone know if there will be enough spline left if I cut 9/16" off each side?
Also, throughout this thread (and elsewhere) I have been unable to find a measurement on where to cut the groove for the circlips. Does anyone have this measurement? |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I understood what you wrote perfectly.
I wasn't implying they were bad or wrong, just different.
That's why I'm curious to hear your experience with them.
The looseness when new was the first sign there is definitely a difference, not just theory.
Just curious how it will pan out.
Hope you are driving sooner than later.
Neil2  |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
The ones you linked to are listed as "Lightened, prepped" that is short for "race prepped", which I believe will behave slightly different than non race prepped joints.
Please Keep us up to date on your experience with them. I am curious, I suspect they will be noisier and possibly like to be repacked more often.
Neil2 |
The syncro van is a long project, no updates coming soon 
I wanted them prepped, it avoids binding from day one when new (I think that's how to say it in english) and thus avoiding pitting greatly. They do feel loose, but no noticeable play. Smooth stuff.
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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The ones you linked to are listed as "Lightened, prepped" that is short for "race prepped", which I believe will behave slightly different than non race prepped joints.
Please Keep us up to date on your experience with them. I am curious, I suspect they will be noisier and possibly like to be repacked more often.
Neil2 |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| FrankenSubySyncro wrote: |
| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Hi folks!
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Alika I love your enthusiasm and ingenuity.
Is this a 930 joint shaved down? Did you buy it or have it machined? How much do they cost?
I love the silicone boots too. How much are they and are you selling any?
I will be coming to Honolulu in February for work but am staying the weekend. It would be great to meet you and hang out. PM me if you are interested. |
Aloha brah! 
Yes it is a machined down CV joint. They are rather pricey, but I read so many bad things about CV joints, so I paid for good stuff hoping it will be good forever...
I got these http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Scr...ange_high=
These are even more bad ass, but a lil' more expensive http://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Scr...ange_high=
The boots will go for 70 bucks a pair.
It will be nice to see you again  .Lemme know when bc I have family over sometimes in february so I might be busy.
Cheers!
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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ALIKA T3
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 7194
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| furrylittleotter wrote: |
I like the lightened cv idea and the silicone boots look cool. I have burley setup and the boots have held up fine but if they fail I might like silicone next time.
Also interesting to see the weights. I always thought the weight trade off was worth the piece of mind of stronger components, but when it is time to replace my cvs ( I just did) I may consider lightened ones. I like how I could feed the bolts in then wipe the threads and apply loctite possibly. Not that mine have ever loosened....
I think Oem was a joke so this is one of my favorite upgrades.
Great to see innovation and new products.
Neil2 |
Thank you
Yeah, with lightened 930 CV joints, the difference with original 100mm cv joints is like 200 grams heavier. Nothing to cry about.
I saw reinforced differential nut and double bearings here before, but now that I have weight facts I feel better about the weight difference
_________________
Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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FrankenSubySyncro
Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 638
Location: Vancouver, WA.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
Hi folks!
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Alika I love your enthusiasm and ingenuity.
Is this a 930 joint shaved down? Did you buy it or have it machined? How much do they cost?
I love the silicone boots too. How much are they and are you selling any?
I will be coming to Honolulu in February for work but am staying the weekend. It would be great to meet you and hang out. PM me if you are interested.
_________________
Syncronize it!
1987 Franken Syncro (converted 2WD auto)
2004 2.5 SOHC Subaru
F & R lockers, decoupler, SS, 6.17 R&P
Trans Cooler
EMPI race prepped 930 CVs and axles
Bilstein coilover front, rear ProComp MX-6066R shocks, 14" hypercoil springs
30x9.5 15" BFG Muds
Custom skid plates
Nose job (custom front bumper) http://www.flickr.com/photos/subyvanagon/sets/72157624970330925/ |
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furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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I like the lightened cv idea and the silicone boots look cool. I have burley setup and the boots have held up fine but if they fail I might like silicone next time.
Also interesting to see the weights. I always thought the weight trade off was worth the piece of mind of stronger components, but when it is time to replace my cvs ( I just did) I may consider lightened ones. I like how I could feed the bolts in then wipe the threads and apply loctite possibly. Not that mine have ever loosened....
I think Oem was a joke so this is one of my favorite upgrades.
Great to see innovation and new products.
Neil2 |
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