Hard Start Relay Diagram

[todmeg]

So th Ghia is in for a body off resto. paint and body work Are done. Body is back on so let the reassembly begin. going well. Since the work is being done at a local really good body/collision shop, I was not involved with r&r on the body. Anyhow, just about all the electrical is up and running, which is more than I can say about cranking. Meanwhile, we have all been wondering WTF this thing hating out that has a relay and a fuse? You Samba guys are the best! Only thing that sucks is that the shop is closed on weekends. Can't wait for Monday! I am blessed with a shop owner who lets me work on my car as much as I want, so I have been involved with everything except paint and bodywork.
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1770 DP Bad ass heads dual weber 40mm 010 headers and glass pack. Rivieras. 1971!!!

[ashman40]

[herbie1200]

The schematic is more complicated that it seems.

If you look at the solenoid you can see TWO "/" lines, to make and evidence that the solenoid has TWO different windings.

When the key is turned on, the left winding is fully energized because the "up" is at 12V and the "low" contact is on the "live" contact of the starter.

The right winding has the "up" at 12V and the low at ground.

So, at the beginning, the soleonoid has TWO windings on and its strength is double, that is useful for the first "engaging" travel.

When the shorting switch becomes ON, the left winding has both the contacts at the same potential (the motor is ON), so the solenoid has half strenght, and this is to avoid an excessive load when the motor is spinning and the contact is already on.

[Eric&Barb]

Any updates??
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In Stereo, Where Available!

[ashman40]

[Eric&Barb]

Here (found in the Gallery by VolkDubz) is what the contacts of the solenoid insides looks like:

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In Stereo, Where Available!

[UK Luke 72]

Thanks for the input guys, I'm going to dig the Bentley out so that I can get my head around how the starter circuit works.

Whilst cranking, Im seeing around 10v on the ECU.
12.2v on the ECU is 12.7v on the batter terminals, so whilst cranking I guess around 10.5v.

I've just posted up a separate thread with a few more specifics, as like you say it sounds like this isn't the issue.
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2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172

[Eric&Barb]

Should also mention that the starter solenoid not only levers the starter gear to the rearward to engage the flywheel gear, but it also has a plate switch inside the solenoid. When that switch is closed in the solenoid, the electrical power from the terminal the positive cable is attached to solenoid is suddenly connected to the starter motor. So if there is any voltage drops from the positive connections from the battery to the solenoid or voltage drops in the several ground connections from the solenoid to the battery ground terminal. Then the solenoid will pull weakly, and the switch inside will only lightly touch the contacts. This light contact switch touch will limit the voltage/amps passing thru to the starter motor copper windings. Resulting in a starter motor that turns the engine over slower or not at all.

A starter solenoid that gets full voltage and amperage to it should clamp the inside switch contacts TIGHTLY inside. Starter motor will then get as much power available thru that switch.

Starter solenoids can and by this time with so many decades on them should be taken apart and the brass plate inside flipped over to the unworn side. Then clean off all corrosion and dielectric grease lightly. This does require a good high wattage electric soldering iron, or an old fashioned soldering iron over a torch to unsolder the electrical connections in the forward end cover of the solenoid.

So the ignition switch does not directly have any voltage/amps going from it to the starter motor itself.

Like any chain, it is only as strong as the weakest link. So it only takes one bad electrical connection.
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In Stereo, Where Available!

[Eric&Barb]

[runamoc]

[UK Luke 72]

Do these actually help the starter turn any faster or do they just take current away from the ignition switch and also make it easier for the starter gear to mesh?
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2276 Beetle build https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670744&highlight=2276+beetle+daily
2276 EFI Conversion https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=689172

[runamoc]

[ashman40]

For this reason they should really be installed under the rear seat where they can remain dry. \
If you really must install it outside, look for a weatherproof version of the SPDT/SPST relay. Some come with an adapter that adds a rubber sealed skirt around the relay and plug.
https://www.waytekwire.com/item/75601/Skirted-Mini...DQodxJIK_w
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[mark tucker]

if you use the small icecube relay be sure it cant get wet and is hung so if it does it wont get h2o inside of it. mount inside, would be good but some are mounted out side. I use the ford style sliynoid on mine, it had the icecube when I got it,one day after a good wash and onto the wife car for a good wash... my bug drove it's self across the road and into the woods. an hour later it had the better ford silly noid on it. That ended the self drive mode.

[scottyrocks]

Thanks, Tim. I've found a few of them by now, one made by a samba member.

[Tim Donahoe]

Scotty, just get one from Wolfsburg West. I don't know if it's made by Bosch or not, but I got a WW one and installed it a couple years ago, using a 20 amp fuse.

No problems whatsoever.

I've found that MidAmerica is pretty much out of stock on anything I'm interested in buying.

Tim
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Richard O'Brien

[scottyrocks]

I typed midamerica into google and got nothing that showed a HSR. Where do I find this pre-wired Bosch HSR for our cars?

[pepsiguy78]

[ashman40]

[pepsiguy78]