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rob.e
Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2013
Posts: 61
Location: Oxford, UK
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42107
Location: at the beach
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 Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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there are a lot of weird old parts floating around some parts of Europe that are still out there. Someone who needs one of the rubber discs might consider contacting these people and asking what they actually have in their inventory. Caveat - photos lie, sellers lie, and "you snooze - you loose" when it comes to old NLA parts if they have a box of the real McCoy. Bob Hood beat me one time to a NOS nla part by 15 minutes - and it was not even advertised by the seller yet. Both of us just had a hunch from some other parts they were selling. took me a year to track down another one, and the guy had two. Tom Dodger has the other one now. So consider contacting these folks.
https://www.beetle.cz/en/obchod/nahradni-dily/dily...zeni-t2-a/
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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Yes, those are good lock nuts. Personally I try not to use that type of locknut on "STUDS" or bolts that are hard to find because the top distorted thread can damage the thread on a stud depending on how well the locknut is manufactured.
But that is not the case here. The bolts on this joint are readily replaceable and those should be excellent locknuts.
Airschooled said:
| Quote: |
| The original early bay castle nuts didn't mess around… I like a good mechanical locking nut here. And fender washers. Four total, under the nuts that are currently resting right on the rubber. |
I totally agree about castle nuts...especially on items like ball joints and tie rod ends and suspension parts in general. Nothing beats the positivity of a cotter pin or stainless wire through a hole.
But you bring up something else with the "fender washer" comment......
I said this a page back and I meant it.....
raygreenwood said:
| Quote: |
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
That is too many layers of cords with too little rubber in between.
The cords in rubber sheets limit the lateral/radial flex....meaning the twisting force/movement. They also make for higher tear resistant.
But....those cords do not add stiffness in the axial direction. Though the rubber might be the correct durometer....excessive amounts of cord removes rubber volume so it will act like a lower durometer rubber in the axial direction. Ray |
I bring your attention to the highlighted sentences. And...this is exactly what we are seeing here.
The radial or twisting strength of this coupler looks great in your video. However, the axial flexability is too high......
.....that is unless you find something loose or wrong in the column itself....
Going back to what Airchooled said that I quoted above.....
Yes....I think fender washers, wider than the flange nut could add axial stiffness to this coupler.
So if that works...think about this for one step better.
Why not make a pair of washer plates. One goes to the steering box yoke bolts and is under the nuts on the steering column side and one goes to the steering column bolts and is on the steering box side and they are 90* perpendicular to each other on opposite sides of the rubber coupler so they do not touch.
Those plates are green in that sketch. You will possibly need four shim washers (in red) to make sure that neither yoke comes in contact with the washer plates passing underneath them.
By the way, this is NOT my design/idea. I have actually seen these exact plates on a rag joint. It was on a car other than a VW but I do not remember if it was American, Japanese, Eurpean or a damn tractor. These would make that coupling nice and stiff in the axial direction.
So....as I noted.....and why I noted this..... after 35 pages of every other coupler on the planet being shit for one reason or another.... or when they are good they turn out to be no longer available....
There are a lot of people piling on and stating.... "Lares is the PROFESSIONALS choice/answer....why look any further?". Because of reasons like this problem and variable availability....so far.
And, I have said it before....in this thread....many pages ago.....no one is testing anything really. Folding a rubber coupler in your hand tests for nothing. Its a comparison saying "this looks similar to that". But what parameter is it REALLY quantifying?
Its kind of like comparing an orange to a pomegranite and saying they are both the same because they are the same diameter.
As I stated, the excessive amount of rag layers in this particular Lares joint will not be conducive to axial stiffness....but WILL make for good radial stiffness (and we saw that in his video). Yes....I have worked with the production of a lot of laminated plastic and rubber products. I saw what I expected.
But....looking at what that joint is good at....if you throw couple of cheap strengthening washer plates on there with a couple of spacers.... it will probably fix it.
Ray |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| airschooled wrote: |
Skipping to part b… Those flange-head nuts are shiny, but are they true locking nuts? The original early bay castle nuts didn't mess around… I like a good mechanical locking nut here. And fender washers. Four total, under the nuts that are currently resting right on the rubber. |
Nuts: Top Lock Flange Nut DIN 6927 Steel Class 10 Hardened
Bolts: M8 Flange Bolt DIN 6921 Class 10.9 Steel
Washers: Steel, Form A Curved Wave Washer DIN 137A
All from Belmetric
I suppose I should have used thick fender washers for the nuts resting on the rubber instead of the wave washers. |
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Xevin
Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 8483
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| Posted: Thu May 01, 2025 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| how much smaller are the bug / vanagon ones 111-415-417 / 251-419-417B ? |
20 or 30% smaller in diameter. |
_________________
Keep on Busin'
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Damn that Xevin... |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd  |
| SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree  |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13413
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
My question:
Item #2: When you pull up or push down on the steering wheel, the coupler flexes up and down, moving the wheel/steering rod about a half inch in either direction.
Here is a video of both scenarios:
Link
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Skipping to part b… Those flange-head nuts are shiny, but are they true locking nuts? The original early bay castle nuts didn't mess around… I like a good mechanical locking nut here. And fender washers. Four total, under the nuts that are currently resting right on the rubber.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Looking at the diagram of the column and looking at his video where the housing stays stationary but the steering wheel pulls in and out.....one has to ask where the axial movement is coming from.
The suggestion that it is coming from the yoke on the steering box splines seems (from the exploded diagram) to be the most likely cause....yet I just could not see that amount or motion coming from the yoke and it's pinch bolt. Yet I could see a lot of flex from the coupler.
A combination of both?
And, if memory serves, that pinch bolt resides in a groove across the splines steering box shaft so even if it loose.....it should never be able to move more than about 1/16" max.
Question: the bus steering column shaft at a glance appears to be a solid two bolt flange on the steering column shaft. But....is it actually pressed in with splines like a type 1, 3 or type 181 flange?
If so, if it is pressed into the end of the steering shaft....perhaps it's the steering shaft end that is slipping in and out and not the steering box clamp bolt flange. Ray |
That is correct - the pinch bolt does reside in a groove across the splines that does not allow much vertical movement at all (about 1/16" like you mentioned). I did double check the pinch bolt was tight and the yoke did not move one bit when performing this test.
To answer your question - the steering column shaft is the solid two bolt flange not the pressed in type.
And yes 1975 busses have the spring under the steering wheel. See below:
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Ok...unless there is something missing on your column that I just do not know about or cannot see in the diagram....I would suggest...purely speculation....but..aren't there two different versions of column, with one having a flat shim/washer on top of that spring...the spring compressed...and a snap ring holding in in the compressed position?
That would keep the steering shaft partly tensioned upward allowing thesteering wheel to "probably" tighten down farther with its washer and nut.
Is it possible you have the wrong column, wheel or a mix of parts?
Check this thread:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...9987c99274
Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52111
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| how much smaller are the bug / vanagon ones 111-415-417 / 251-419-417B ? |
20 or 30% smaller in diameter. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42107
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 2:45 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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how much smaller are the bug / vanagon ones 111-415-417 / 251-419-417B ?
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| dodger tom wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this.  |
it also helps to prevent popping wheelies. |
I like this way of thinking...  |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42107
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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these 35 pages remind me of the children's story
Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Goldilocks. She went for a walk in the forest. Pretty soon, she came upon a house. She knocked and, when no one answered, she walked right in. At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl. “This porridge is too hot!” she exclaimed. So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl. “This porridge is too cold,” she said So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge. “Ahhh, this porridge is just right,” she said happily and she ate it all up. After she’d eaten the three bears’ breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet. “This chair is too big!” she exclaimed. So she sat in the second chair. “This chair is too big, too!” she whined. So she tried the last and smallest chair. “Ahhh, this chair is just right,” she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces! Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.
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"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Looking at the diagram of the column and looking at his video where the housing stays stationary but the steering wheel pulls in and out.....one has to ask where the axial movement is coming from.
The suggestion that it is coming from the yoke on the steering box splines seems (from the exploded diagram) to be the most likely cause....yet I just could not see that amount or motion coming from the yoke and it's pinch bolt. Yet I could see a lot of flex from the coupler.
A combination of both?
And, if memory serves, that pinch bolt resides in a groove across the splines steering box shaft so even if it loose.....it should never be able to move more than about 1/16" max.
Question: the bus steering column shaft at a glance appears to be a solid two bolt flange on the steering column shaft. But....is it actually pressed in with splines like a type 1, 3 or type 181 flange?
If so, if it is pressed into the end of the steering shaft....perhaps it's the steering shaft end that is slipping in and out and not the steering box clamp bolt flange. Ray |
That is correct - the pinch bolt does reside in a groove across the splines that does not allow much vertical movement at all (about 1/16" like you mentioned). I did double check the pinch bolt was tight and the yoke did not move one bit when performing this test.
To answer your question - the steering column shaft is the solid two bolt flange not the pressed in type.
And yes 1975 busses have the spring under the steering wheel. See below:
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13413
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
he was going up hill. Its the rhythm thing, pull steering wheel to rock forward. |
The pope might be dead but the rhythm method has always had some truth behind it.
_________________
One-on-one tech help for your vintage Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com
https://www.patreon.com/airschooled |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 42107
Location: at the beach
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
he was going up hill. Its the rhythm thing, pull steering wheel to rock forward.
_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin |
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dodger tom
Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013
Posts: 1855
Location: Central Coast, CA, but we're all still Ukrainian and Californian
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
it also helps to prevent popping wheelies.
_________________
1978 Champaign Edition 2 Westfalia
Would never find the time to keep up another classic air-cooled. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
Looking at the diagram of the column and looking at his video where the housing stays stationary but the steering wheel pulls in and out.....one has to ask where the axial movement is coming from.
The suggestion that it is coming from the yoke on the steering box splines seems (from the exploded diagram) to be the most likely cause....yet I just could not see that amount or motion coming from the yoke and it's pinch bolt. Yet I could see a lot of flex from the coupler.
A combination of both?
And, if memory serves, that pinch bolt resides in a groove across the splines steering box shaft so even if it loose.....it should never be able to move more than about 1/16" max.
Question: the bus steering column shaft at a glance appears to be a solid two bolt flange on the steering column shaft. But....is it actually pressed in with splines like a type 1, 3 or type 181 flange?
Like this:
https://www2.cip1.com/VWC-311-415-413-SET/?gad_sou...dgEALw_wcB
If so, if it is pressed into the end of the steering shaft....perhaps it's the steering shaft end that is slipping in and out and not the steering box clamp bolt flange. Ray |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52111
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Jason0115 wrote: |
| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
You obviously have the wrong driving style, you should always lean heavily on the steering wheel to prevent this. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23017
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| airschooled wrote: |
Didn’t see you last page video. That looks like the steering yoke clamp is not tight. If the wheel sprang back down, ok it could be the coupler. But since it slides begrudgingly both ways, look for that clamp bolt, 13mm, on top of the steering box. It should have an aggressive lock nut or locking tab depending on year.
Item #1 in your video is not the coupler’s fault. Check your tire pressure and move on. |
Possible! You can see that pinch bolt in his video and compare relative to the steering box. It looks like there "could" be some movement there but its hard to tell as there is some radial jostling.
However, what I DO see is that the axial flex of the coupler... IS...just about the same as the gap he is seeing between the steering wheel and column tube.
While there may be SOME yoke movement visible in the video by comparing the pinch bolt to the steering box starting at about the 36 second mark.....its not the 3/8" of an inch that we definately see in the coupler.
To answer the OP's query to me a couple of posts back...no I am not blaming the coupler (yet). The issue I ask about is why the steering column has that much axial play rehardless of what the coupling disk is doing.
The earlier buses (pre-74-ish?) had a spring underneath the steering wheel that kept tension on the steering wheel. However, not sure about 1975.
As for "everyone swears by Lares".....Ok....I have been digging through thsi thread since it started in 2010. There has been no mention of "Lares" until about February of 2022. That was about 10 pages ago,
Since that time....good results with Lares...when you can get them. Still not perfect dimensions but good enough (back about 9 pages ago).
Too many people asking why anyone should be looking for any other solution when only over the past three years has anyone found a solution that has any quality.
Being that I work with a lot of rubber product and rubber laminate manufacturing...and there are huge issues with quality and spec of manufacturing, I am always questioning products. Always looking for a second source or better source.
As you note...the yoke may be loose. What next if its not?
Ray |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 13413
Location: West Coast, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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Didn’t see you last page video. That looks like the steering yoke clamp is not tight. If the wheel sprang back down, ok it could be the coupler. But since it slides begrudgingly both ways, look for that clamp bolt, 13mm, on top of the steering box. It should have an aggressive lock nut or locking tab depending on year.
Item #1 in your video is not the coupler’s fault. Check your tire pressure and move on.
_________________
One-on-one tech help for your vintage Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com
https://www.patreon.com/airschooled |
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Jason0115
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2021
Posts: 113
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| airschooled wrote: |
People who drive buses daily, work on buses professionally, and restore buses for a living all prefer the Lares couplers. The common thread here is that they’ve actually used them. I avoid taking advice from people who don’t do the work.
Robbie |
That was the consensus I got on the couplers. It seems fine to me. I just cant figure out what is causing the up and down movement. Is there anything else you know of that can limit the movement? |
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