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Worms
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Joined: May 19, 2009
Posts: 279
Location: Whangarei, New Zealand
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 Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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I have had 3 subaru cars with 280,000 to 310,000 (our current impreza) Kms.
I have had some lower milage ones too. The 2.5 generally only blows a headgasket when it gets hot - because of the big bores, it doesn't have to get very hot though. Often the heater cores in the subaru gets partially blocked from not changing coolant enough, or from using poor quality water, among other things.
The gaskets were also a poor design, but the genuine replacements are excellent, and usually don't need to be touched again.
I haven't ever had one throw a rod, but they have all been well serviced and unmodified.
Here in New Zealand, we have a LOT of used cars from Japan (JDM cars).
It's a lot better now, but many used to have very poor service history and VERY dirty, chunky deposits under the rocker covers - plus the extended idling is bad for the oil and the extra heat causes more issues (even the wiring looms and insulation go hard!).
I run the smallcar sump, and I just slightly overfill it - about 4.2 litres in the sump, from memory - no issues to far.
As Ben has already said - check that oil pickup:
a very small pin hole could suck in a lot of air at high rpms, and the air will be fine bubbles "blended" or "whipped" into the oil - the oil pressure will show fine, but at the bearings, the aerated oil can't support the same load as normal oil.
I think it's just bad luck! |
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D Clymer
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Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| BlackDogVan wrote: |
BUT... they do tend to be sold by many as completely bulletproof. Reading deeper & a few chinks in their armor can be found. Am I wrong that they share a few issues with the WBX? Some are known for leaky heads, right?
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Generally speaking they are bulletproof. The bottom end is extremely durable and usually it's rings or the need for a valve job that finally makes them ready for a rebuild. This failure shown on this thread is unusual and not one that I've seen before on the Ultimate Subaru Message Board or in the Subaru Vanagon circles. The head gasket issue only afflicts 2.5 liter engines and it is not a high frequency occurance. It has been exaggerated by some to the point where you'd swear it is the same old problem the wasserboxers had. In fact it's not even close.
I think it's fair that they are being extolled by many as being bulletproof. When you take an engine, usually with some tall miles already on it, put it in a 3600-5500 lb Vanagon with a .44 drag coefficient and a huge frontal area, and then run it down the highway at 4000 + rpms and get a good long service life out of it, I think that pretty much qualifies as bulletproof.
David |
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EverettB 
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71597
Location: Phoenix 602
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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Moderator note:
Some cleanup was performed.
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This includes short comments, stupid images you found on the internet, replies that consist of only smilies, etc.
If you have issues with a response, please hit report and do not respond or "fed the troll," that just makes more work for us to clean up.
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Racerrojo
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Joined: August 01, 2006
Posts: 827
Location: ALBUQUERQUE 87120
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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 Fine. maybe I exaggerating, but I rather have to deal with a EJ than WBX any day. But... for each its own. there's planty of other treads that people can hash it out about that.
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Tight is tight... too tight is expensive!!!!
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Racerrojo
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Joined: August 01, 2006
Posts: 827
Location: ALBUQUERQUE 87120
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well the two vans had their own short oil pans,
I measured about 1/4" between the pick up and the bottom of the pan, there was debries at the pick up screen (but was not cloged).\
A few Weeks earlier the owner of the van was driving it pretty low on oil I could hear the lifters 50 feet away, obiusly that engine was burning some oil but it was not obius smoke or serius leaks, I replacec the PCV valve, toped it off and the noice went away after a few miles. Maybe the damage was done then.
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Tight is tight... too tight is expensive!!!!
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Volksaholic
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Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
| r30o wrote: |
| While the Suby is quite reliable in a lighter weight sedan application, remember we are loading the little rice burners pretty well with 5000 pound vans. |
| volksaholic wrote: |
| Fun fact... I looked up the weights of my 2003 Outback Wagon and my Wolfsburg/Carat style Vanagon... they are so close that the passenger load makes a bigger difference than the curb weight of the vehicle. Granted, I can stuff 2 more people and a lot of |
I was thinking the early 1993 EJ22 powered car my engine came from and my big white elephant Westy.
Small lower drag little car verses non-aerodynamic mobile camping tent / giant brick van.
I suppose the newer cars are getting heavier so that begins to even up some but does not account for the difference in aerodynamics. |
Right... there's no doubt that the drag of a Vanagon is more than my Outback. The newer Outback and Forester are closer to the same drag because the roofline is higher... but a pop-top Vanagon is about as un-aerodynamic as you can get.
I was surprised to find that my Wolfsburg weighs about the same as my Outback. You're right... add a kitchen, pop-top, cabinets... and the worse... Syncro drive train... you're talking some weight. Still, I think Bob Stevens was pleased with the EJ22 in his Syncro Westy ('86 or '87), although I suspect it would be hard for him to go back since he's had the H6 EZ30 for almost a year. (That's a sweet looking installation.)
Ben... that makes more sense to me on engine break-in. When I'd build new aircooled engines I always expected that until the rings seated. My '03 Outback was just out of break-in when I bought it. My '01 EJ25 in the Vanagon doesn't lose any noticeable amount of oil between changes... with exception of a month ago when I damaged the unshortened oil pan and sprung a leak!  I'm planning on shortening the oil pan this Spring, so I'm still taking in what info I can regarding what's worked and what doesn't with the shortened pans. For the meantime, JB Weld is keeping the oil pan sealed up.
pd
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1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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ftp2leta
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Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
Yes, that press formed golden piece of sheet metal under the modified oil pick up you show. What you refer to as a "baffle" is what I mean by a "windage tray."
While on the topic, how do you clean the old oil tube pick up screen? In days of old we always found debris in crimped area of the screen. It has to be clean, of course, of such junk before installation. |
Ok, well the 2.2L I have work on (98 up) had such a baffle, I don't know about the earlier one.
I even think it was the same.
Again, I work on very late engine so no need to clean anything
but if I had to, I would use brake cleaner from the grill side and some compress air after, part removed of course.
About oil starvation, the oil pan as a small O-ring on the return metal oil tube!!! It's easy to miss this one. If not there the oil will not go directly at the bottom of the pan.
No need to tell you guys that the oil pickup also as an O-ring....
I have no precise picture of the pan interior but you can see the oil return passage on this picture, look at the red arrow, on the opposite side (pointing), that big hole on the right top corner.
Ben
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r39o
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Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, that press formed golden piece of sheet metal under the modified oil pick up you show. What you refer to as a "baffle" is what I mean by a "windage tray."
While on the topic, how do you clean the old oil tube pick up screen? In days of old we always found debris in crimped area of the screen. It has to be clean, of course, of such junk before installation.
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1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
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ftp2leta
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Joined: October 11, 2004
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Location: Montreal
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r39o
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Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Not to thread jack, but while on this oiling topic. Is this windage tray in all the engines? If not, can it be used in my EJ22 application?
.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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r39o
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Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| r30o wrote: |
| While the Suby is quite reliable in a lighter weight sedan application, remember we are loading the little rice burners pretty well with 5000 pound vans. |
| volksaholic wrote: |
| Fun fact... I looked up the weights of my 2003 Outback Wagon and my Wolfsburg/Carat style Vanagon... they are so close that the passenger load makes a bigger difference than the curb weight of the vehicle. Granted, I can stuff 2 more people and a lot of |
I was thinking the early 1993 EJ22 powered car my engine came from and my big white elephant Westy.
Small lower drag little car verses non-aerodynamic mobile camping tent / giant brick van.
I suppose the newer cars are getting heavier so that begins to even up some but does not account for the difference in aerodynamics.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| ftp2leta wrote: |
| Oil pickup distance to oil pan bottom: 1/4 MINIMUM - 1/2 MAX Ben |
x2.
And the pickup itself should be at a slight angle as Ben has shown in his photos. |
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
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ahem - the utterance of a sound similar to clearing the throat; intended to get attention, express hesitancy, fill a pause, hide embarrassment, warn a friend, etc.
I had to look this one up lot of Lol, double lol again.
Volksaholic:
Lately, in the car owner manual you can read that the engine may take oil for the first 6-7k miles. Engine breaking I guess. As I'm using late engine I often see that (report from customer). It seem to get better with time.
That said, I'm honest enough to tell you that I had to replace 2 2.5L (07-09) because of heavy oil consumption. Heavy, 1 quart every 300-400 miles.
That said, the 07 as been in my van and I can confirm. Now, this engine (short block) is on an engine stand and I will put it it million pieces soon and report later. Those 2 engine didn't sustain any obvious damage (car accident), but both where rollover!!!!!!! Oil starvation? Coolant in the pistons ring???
Now do your own search about 2.5L oil consumption, you may be surprise. On my side with 46 conversion done it seem that it's not a common problem. My 01 never consume oil at all. The 09 I have in there now either.
Average consumption seem to be about 1 quart to 1.5 per 3000 miles (5000km).
I have report of heavy smoke wile climbing/descending steep hill, last a few second, to much oil - foaming -crank splashing .
Short oil pan:
That was our first oil pickup, welded. It's now in one piece (bent-expensive machine)
Latest oil pan, bottom is 1/8 thick, carefully welded and tested.
Total dept, 4-1/8 including the 1/8 bottom plate.
Oil content: 4.2liter
Dipstick: using the stock unmodified 20006-10 one
This is a picture on a stock 06-10 oil pan (we can't use those):
Look at the carving to clear the new header (car), that is why they are back at 4.2L
Sorry, no picture of the new oil pickup.
Oil pickup distance to oil pan bottom: 1/4 MINIMUM - 1/2 MAX
Hope that help, now back to my conversion
Ben
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Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
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FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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Volksaholic
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Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:20 am Post subject: |
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I know I've read of some folks having a streak of bad luck with Subi conversions... but it sure seems to be in the minority. I find this of interest partly because I still need to shorten my oil pan and I want to make sure I get it right.
There are a couple of quotes here that I thought were worth commenting on... and one that I just couldn't resist:
Ben said:
| Quote: |
| 2.5L will in average eat oil, about 1 quart every 1500 miles so check your oil once in a wile. |
Can you qualify this statement? You've got more experience than anyone on this thread with these conversions, but your statement isn't true for a stock 2.5L with a stock oil pan... so I'm wondering what I'm missing. I've got a 2001 EJ25 in my Vanagon, 2003 Outback with an EJ25, and my wife has a 2008 Forester with the newer version of that same engine. None "eat oil" and I haven't seen this reported on the Outback, Forester, or NASIOC sites, so I'm assuming this refers to engines with shortened pans.
r39o said:
| Quote: |
| While the Suby is quite reliable in a lighter weight sedan application, remember we are loading the little rice burners pretty well with 5000 pound vans. |
Fun fact... I looked up the weights of my 2003 Outback Wagon and my Wolfsburg/Carat style Vanagon... they are so close that the passenger load makes a bigger difference than the curb weight of the vehicle. Granted, I can stuff 2 more people and a lot of stuff in the Vanagon.
r39o:
| Quote: |
| So just how do you check your oil pickup tube? Would an oil pressure gauge show weird things going on? |
Like I said... I'm still running a stock pan & pickup tube. If the pan's coming off I think it's worth replacing the o-ring on the pickup tube. I had to buy mine from the stealership... it was about $4 for about $0.05 worth of seal, but I was buttoning things up and it wasn't worth the time to try to shave $2 or $3 off. There are also some seals in the oil pump that it was recommended I replace, but I thought that was for leakage problems rather than oil delivery. In any case, I replaced them.
If you start sucking air I would expect the pressure to drop. One odd thing about these engines is they run like 70-80psi when they're above idle as opposed to most engines I'm familiar with... about 40-60psi. I've seen that documented on the Subi sites... so it just seems to be they way they're designed. I installed oil pressure and temperature gauges in the Vanagon so I have a better idea what's going on. It will be interesting to see if shortening the oil pan causes a change in the oil pressure or temperature behaviors. Since the pressure is controlled by the pressure relief system, the only things that should change it temporarily is lack of oil at the pickup, cavitation/foaming, or a drop in viscosity due to overheating... at least that's all that comes to mind.
EDIT: Removing troll food, with my apologies to everyone but the troll!
Paul
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1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251
Last edited by Volksaholic on Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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914 mike
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Joined: May 03, 2005
Posts: 437
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Who's shortened oil pan/pick up did the OP use? Did he swap it from the first trashed motor to the second?
These motors are notorious for lasting 300k +.....from the factory. If something like this happened its like what Ben is saying....must be due to tinkering with oil supply stuff....I have Kennedy stuff on mine and have been from Baja to Banff with no problems...its also my daily.
I wouldn't loose sleep over the issue, r39....just give it a good looking at...
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84 Westy
2.2 Suby
In a world full of ponies it's a thoroughbred horse....
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
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So just how do you check your oil pickup tube?
Would an oil pressure gauge show weird things going on?
Help me before I do something dumb and button my Suby engine up.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:53 am Post subject: |
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Classic oil startvation for sure.
Did you swap all the conversion parts from one motor to the next with the same result?
I agree with Ben...check the pickup for proper fit.
dylan |
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ftp2leta
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Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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ftp2leta
Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gorge Runner wrote: |
Yeah, that sucks. A friend blew two motors -- the common part was the oil pump. First one threw a rod going up a hill, he found a short block and swapped all the components and it ran fine, for a while. When the second one blew, he took a closer look and found the oil pump was the problem.
I'm not sure anyone really knows how much oil is in the bottom of the stock pan not to mention the shortened pan at any given rpm. Well, other when the the rpm is zero and almost all the oil is drained into the pan. Maybe someone here knows with some certainty, but I'd guess its quite a bit.
Marc |
99-05 is 4.8
06 up is 4.2
Same engine.
shorten oil pan (based on 99-05) is 4-4.2.
To have the crankshaft wiped oil you need at least 6 quart.
Oil foaming is not a big problem on our daily driver. unless you run that engine at 6000 rpm for 10 hours
Engine can work with only 2 quart without any problem.
Tested by me.
2.2 & 2.5 have no known rod problem. Same goes for short or long block, this is not a known or common problem.
That said, it's pretty easy to blow up any engine.
Blame the oil pickup on some short oil pan.
this is called oil starvation. Now open up that engine and find the real problem. It should be pretty easy and obvious.
Engine (stock pan or not) are design to work at angle as much as 50deg.
It's so easy to do a conversion wrongly. Those little detail...
I don't care who did modified this oil pick up but look for a leak in this one.
Don't blame the engine for this kind of problem. Blame the conversion part or the guy who put those part together. Now, what is the clearance between the bottom of oil pan and oil pickup?
Why do you think I charge so much!
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I am hoping to side step the oil level / quantity issue by using a Small Car aluminum oil pan.
While the Suby is quite reliable in a lighter weight sedan application, remember we are loading the little rice burners pretty well with 5000 pound vans. We ask for a lot of steam far more frequently than when they were in their before life. In other words we are asking for a higher duty cycle. Add to the facts that most are well used before get them. No wonder some explode under the strain.
In the old days we would, almost never, just stick a used engine in a car. We would open them up and overhaul them. It was economical to do that and you could get parts. Now we just do a unit replacement and pray we are lucky. Sometimes our prayers are not heard and one dies.
I attribute such deaths to running the engines hard and cheaping out by just sticking them in.
Win some, lose some.
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"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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